So is this Anime or Manga cannon? If it's Manga Cannon then how will Trunks beat a thousand Zamasu when he Ultimately separates himself? If it's Anime Cannon, how will Trunks beat Zamasu literally morphing with the Universe? Is Zeno going to have to handle things again? There seems to be a lot of possibilities to how this could go. Where is regular Zamasu anyways? Is he not here? Does that mean no fusion between the two to result in Zamasu Squared will be happening?

Damian Qualshy was saying: Tamamo-no-Bae was saying: I bet there is no future Zamasu this time around, or he's not with Black.
Since Whis did intervene, things just turned out differently.

What? When did Whis intervene? How would he and why?

They might count Whis telling Trunks and Mai about this future timeline to return to. That's all I can think though since in the main story before these events Beerus was the one killing a Zamasu (causing this new future to be created).

Also at the start of this story Beerus flat out tells Whis not to help Trunks and Mai (by warning the Gods in the new timeline about Black) since they have "done enough for them already" narrowing down the ways Whis could have intervened to just telling Trunks he could go to a future with a chance Black can be stopped before he arrives but evidently that didn't happen and instead it's back to square one, minus a Zamasu I guess (unless I'm wrong and another does somehow show up).

(I personally think the plan was doomed from the start since Trunks can't warn any Gods since he can't contact them or travel to them

I'm wondering how Zamasu swapped bodies with Goku since this timeline was born after Beerus killed Zamasu before the body swap and future Goku is long dead at this point, but maybe we'll see the Zamasu/Trunks seen on the cover soon or the Goku body can be explained).

I bet there is no future Zamasu this time around, or he's not with Black.
Since Whis did intervene, things just turned out differently.

Damian Qualshy was saying:
Original Cell also had more time to develop and he drank a lot of people to get where he did. This one is rushed to "perfection", and barely out of the tube. His biology lacks the pure power and potential of Frost Demons, all he has is one weak Namek and the three Saiyans, that means one human hybrid at 18k power level and only Namek Saga Vegeta being a Super Saiyan donor.
He IS weaker, has to be. I would confidently say that he should be just above the original's Semi Perfect form, so still formidable but doesn't require Super Saiyan 2 Gohan to be defeated.

Also Cell wasn't "on par" with Kamiccolo. He was outclassed during their first encounter in Gingertown.

In fairness I believe Cell only needed to drink all those people because he was weakened after having to revert to a larval stage to fit in Trunks time machine. An easy detail to forget but Cell was actually on Earth for a year before Trunks arrived the first time. He needed time to grow and had to eat after reaching his imperfect form. Four years of hibernation will do that to you. I fully suspect this fight to be a stomp for Gast but this Cell is probably still fairly strong. It's just an estimate but this version of Perfect Cell is probably around the strength of our semi-perfect Cell, maybe a bit stronger.

Vash was saying: Vegeta was at 18k power level when his DNA sample was taken. Goku and Nappa were 7-8k each. Gohan and everyone else were in the low thousands, since it was from the same battle. Unless an older and stronger version of Gohan sample was collected later on. None of the sample was strong enough to even beat Zarbon. This Cell should be a lot weaker than the original.

It's not like original Cell was capped at the power level of his donors. The strongest source he had was King Cold, who died to a Super Saiyan yet he was on par with Kami-fused Piccolo, and eventually surpassed him.

I'm not sure if Vegeta is just wrong or if it's a mistranslation, but they don't change their power level with their emotions, that is only Gohan. They just can raise it or lower it due to ki control.

It never made sense to me for them to take the scouters off. Like I understand not trusting their initial power level, but you would want it on to see any increases when they do go all out. By taking them off you become blind to what their current power is. (Yes, this is nitpicky, and was an issue in the OG manga, not this one!)

The angle on Gast here reminds me so much of when he was messing with King Piccolo, I love it!

Damian Qualshy was saying: This edgy OC has more detail than most of the comic. Insane.
You just had to leave this comment, right Damian? Can't you just say something nice for once, without getting provoking at the same time? This is honestly kind of sad behavior. You do the same sometimes with the other comics by the way. Just Saiyan.

You know, you don't always have to say something about everything, especially if you don't have something nice to say, a comment that's actually meant to be a compliment... and not a well disguised insult. Sometimes it's better to move on, instead of beating a dead horse. This is the last page, so please just move on.

Damian Qualshy was saying: TO BE FAIR he doesn't know Krillin. He was introduced to Gohan as well as Bulma but theoretically the only connection Gohan would have to this place is Goku and ChiChi True but he is wearing the same gi his dad always worn. I'm wondering if Goku will interject by talking to Gohan through King Kai.

Damian Qualshy was saying: You really use Fandom as your source of information...? And not all of them have it mentioned, like Slug.
"Like several Movie villains, Toriyama had a hand in his development. In particular, his design under even Toriyama's personal sketches often ended up being revised. In order to make his true species a surprise to viewers, in particular, Toriyama added in a special helmet as well as a body suit with gloves to avoid giving away evident Namekian traits."

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Lord_Slug#Development
https://d...png#Development

Any source is open to being wrong, but it's reliable enough to take at face value, plus, it is constantly moderated and provides a number of citations.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Actually.. Didn't Toriyama design Lychee as well? I know he made almost all of the movie designs, with only a handful being done by others. And just because it's not canon to his work in the manga, doesn't mean it's not his character.
There's no mention of it on DB fandom so likely not. All of the other characters that Toriyama designed have mentions that Toriyama designed them.

So everyone has conveniently forgot this was the story of how Broly was found alone in space covered in ice and instead has chosen to rail the author for not making an easy win on the side of the Universal defenders.

Of course it "doesn't make sense", it's a story about Dragonball using Z Broly of all people. This isn't your personal comeback story like the days of comics where the fan base picks the ending.

And if you all get mad at me for calling the "critics" idiots, just remember:

The comic fan base, when given the option to allow Tim Drake (Robin, later Red Hood) to be saved by Batman and live, or die to the Joker...

...CHOSE TO HAVE HIM KILLED.

NONE OF YOU ARE ANY DIFFERENT. Get over yourselves or write your own stories.

RetroOVER9000 was saying: With this one it's not that readers are complaining all the time, it's just you made a bad story. It happens. Not every DB story is good. Broly DBM is just garbage. You want to see Broly done right? Go watch Ultra Vegito. THAT is how you write Broly. Not this ever growing invincible "oh no his power goes higher higher higher nonsense.
Bro Ultra Vegito is even worse LMFAO this is 10x better then that

Nan-chan was saying: We still need an official explanation why he is older than videl, not just about height but age, videl is at best 10 or 11, and this gohan is prolly looking older than his 11 yrs old age

I do bet on hyperbolic machine but it's not yet confirmed
you dont need an explanation for everything

This Vegeta is probably Vegeta Sr., the father and future king of planet Plant, rebranded into planet Vegeta.

Will Yamoshi and others fail? Hmm

jonathan_vik was saying: Okay, I think this joke has been run into the ground. Are there going to be any actually fights?
No. You (not you personnaly, the readers who complains all the time) get 70 pages of that and you get mad. Now, enjoy what you wanted since the beginning : A story were Broly is defeated by logic ;)

MajinPower was saying: They’ll show us all the power of Gohan Super Sayan but he is not in the tournament why?
Because the new Cell released by Gero will kill him in the next chapterbefore getting killed by Gast!

Gohan does not like fighting. Period, end of sentence. He only went in 16/18 because his friends and family went, and he's just a spectator.

Come on guys, we saw Piccolo go upside Goku's head with a clue by four about this. Gohan is basically never going to fight unless there's something important on the line or if someone is pushing him to do it. This was initially framed as a tournament for fun. He didn't do squat until people started going crazy and killing the audience members.

MajinPower was saying: They’ll show us all the power of Gohan Super Sayan but he is not in the tournament why?
Because the new Cell released by Gero will kill him in the next chapterbefore getting killed by Gast!
Either that or he didn't want to enter the tournament. Kinda like why Krillin didn't come with Gast. Gohan doesn't love fighting and reviving his dad isn't possible. Living in peace seems more like him.

I don't know why I have this feeling, but the previewing eyes seem better if they are not green as usual, e.g., red eyes... well

I went back and re-read the end of the Goku/Vegeta fight. Bra seems more impressed with SSJ0 or SSJ Normal or whatever it is called than this suggested.

Eldagusto was saying: Your nickel was saying: How was Gohan handling three Androids by himself in base on the last page? Unless he was made an Android himself, that is

Why do you say he was in base, he was blonde. But yeah I think the androids aren't intended to all be as strong as even gero. He didn't need strength after he killed goku and didn't have a reason to make them stronger then him. Cell was his big strength project. Each Android probably was experimenting specific facets of design he was playing with, not necessarily just making them stronger and stronger. He wanted them to have some degree of autonomy but not enough power to be a problem.


How do we know the white colored hair isn't just part of the costume?

I'm pretty sure too, that he's Gohan. But look his Eyes and Face. Damn, I never saw him so badass. It's not like him. Maybe it's because of the Timeline.

I'm sure too, Vegeta attacked the Earth, after he achieved SSJ, but before Goku died. He don't know that Form otherwise...

Paaah was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: So.. Before we get more pages, I can only assume that this is where they die. Six months ago. And yet EVERYONE ELSE is still alive after that. Zamasu does a lousy job in this story, where it's assumed in DBS that Earth would be the last of the planets with living inhabitants.

Funny thing really that in Dbs's manga Black and Zamasu actually do kill everyone in the future before the secobd encounter with Goku and Vegeta (they just float around shooting ki everywhere, Trunks and the Kais appear to help but since they were only focusing on Black Zamasu just kills the last guy in a warehouse).

It may not be most peoples favourite version of the arc but I favor it happily, besides some hiccups (like the hakai attempt) it gives actual explanations how Mai or Trunks in seperate occasions escaped Black (someone who should sense any life force or ki being a kai apprentice and all).
Trunks emphasized how little of the population remained when he left and specified how long Goku Black had been rampaging. They did ultimately kill everybody in the anime. I'm not sure what you two are talking about. I didn't mention it before cause I didn't feel like paraphrasing or double checking atm lol
As for the manga, it was bad. Goku mimicking the Hakai like he did with the Afterimage, a vastly different and more simple technique by comparison, is one of those reasons why.

I really liked your art. It's some of the best on this site or in any DB fan work!

The writing and fundamental decision to start telling this story while DBS was still running (and presumably would have continued had Toriyama not died), however, are... well, let's just say you should stick with art. You're really good at that.

is socks yamcha and bulmas kid?

Small typo:
"Hu, no sir." should be "Uh, no sir."

mx1mum was saying: Sheesh. Gohan just decimated a whole town of innocent people.

This Gohan is a mindless monkey. He isn't Goku's son anymore

I still don't see how Trunks could defeat an immortal being that not even his father and Goku could defeat.
And the author better make Mai be useful, because otherwise it makes no sense she present herself to Black.

Damian Qualshy was saying: King Kindred was saying: Those are some evil looks those Saiyans are giving.

And it's specifically his friends lmao, can't wait for these five to do the SSG ritual.
They'd still need one more though.

Ayashi was saying: DrewSaga was saying: Gogetto was saying: I hole they spent those 10 years in the time chamber. They're gonna need it. I'm hoping we get an epic yamcha v Vegeta fight. Also I wonder if yamcha and bulma have a kid in this timeline

Honestly if the humans got their 48 Hours (2 Years inside the HTC) of training in the HTC then surely they'd be well above the Saiyans. Even Oozaru Vegeta wouldn't top that (or at least unlikely that he would).
lol no. People forget how ridiculous DBZ was...
"Oozaru Vegeta" should clock around 180k PL.
The humans could have trained themselves to a hundred times their end-of-dragonball power and they'd still fall against Nappa's Oozaru form let alone Vegeta's!

Considering Tien was literally able to push Cell and deflect an energy blast meant to kill/wreck Mystic Gohan and Krillin could cut Frieza's tail I seriously doubt Oozaru Nappa or Vegeta could beat Tien or Krillin with 10 Years of training if two of those years were spent in the HTC (which would be 12 Years). Oozaru Vegeta is early DBZ and is nothing compared to Frieza nevermind 2nd Form Cell. That's not ridiculous at all to think humans can beat that and I am sure Salagir would agree considering he had Videl wreck a Cell Jr.

Girl Buu was saying: Diminishing results is a thing and important to keep in mind when trying to estimate how strong the humans would be training with Kami.

I doubt they used the time chamber, the humans never did in the main time line because it would have killed them. People forget how dangerous that thing is.

Well, I guess we will see soon if they used the HTC. I recall Tien in DBZ refusing to use it not because he couldn't handle it, but because he realizes that he can't compete with Perfect Cell evcn if he did. Though he'd at least do better against the Cell Jrs probably if he went (and still lose rather bad).

Those are some evil looks those Saiyans are giving.

FishNChips was saying: 4 on 4.
Goodluck, brave heroes! You will be remembered, because let's face it, you've got as much chance as a fly in a tornado

So, Tien was powerful enough to affect Semi perfect Cell. They were all powerful enough to not get one shot by cell Jrs.

Sure, they didn't train with King Kai, and Krillin didn't get his potential unlocked, but it's called potential for a reason.

They're nowhere near as powerful as their DBZ counters, but they could be well above 10k.

Now, Vegeta and crew should also be.

Also, they're all bones if the androids show up, hahaha.

Pizza was saying: I just want to say that trunks should be training them all to be at least yamcha level I get that this isn't the time but after making buu showed up and he was considered the hero of earth he should've started taking on students
It'll take too much time and would probably be too dangerous with Goku Black being able to sense ki. They'd be better off in the Room of Spirit and Time probably, but the Lookout has likely long been destroyed. If not by the Cyborgs, then definitely by Goku Black. They're basically stuck and their options are limited.

Von Durmark was saying: Nah, this wouldn't work due to DBM Broly plot armor. He would just yell very loudly and the spit would die from his maximumest power.
If Carbonite worked, I don't see why this wouldn't.

It's weird that they tried to keep demon king Piccolo as a mystery fighter, what was the thought proccess behind it?

Also this might sound like a weird critique but you guys gave too much polish to Bardock's armor, it makes the scratch marks look unnatural.

Damian Qualshy was saying: I still love that SS4 Vegeta hair, such a great design for the king

Well, he does seem to be Vegeta's grandpa, so...

shirubihime was saying: Isn't Zamasu immortal and that's why their universe was erased to begin with? Like, it makes no sense to try to defeat an immortal being...
This Trunks knows the Mafuuba.

Ellie was saying: MUI was saying: Lot of possibilities how they actually were not dumb and defeated Broly. One of them:

1. Using Porunga to wish for the potara earrings.

2. Gogeta not playing around, going for the kill and checking if he is actually really dead.

Idk how else they defeat him, since he is way out of their league. Fusion is the only way they can kill him.

utilizing buu more probably having him absorb gogeta. we already know from the official story that gogeta is MUCH stronger than lolvegito.

Dont agree about Gogeta beeing stronger then Vegito. Toriyama literraly stated Gogeta and Vegito are equal in strength. For me its also the safest way to compare their powers.

255 days for 74 pages, some of them with only a single drawing and no text

I didn't like it. I can forgive the drawings. I cannot simply ignore bad writing. This is a story after all and the drawings are just there to help our imagination.

I'll give some constructive criticism so the mods don't flag my comment

The biggest mistakes were including new rules, something Dragon Ball doesn't need at all. I'm talking mainly about this ice barrier thing. Another mistake was including old and weak foes. Introducing and killing them was a waste of pages that coul've been used to better explain and draw the main battle.

In your favor I have to say this was a difficult choice to make a special. The last (DBM Canon) Broly special pretty much concluded the story with nothing left to tell. Broly survived being exposed to maybe the biggest hazzard seen in all of Dragon Ball, a super massive Black Hole. It was a forced conclusion, Broly is just unkillable. He transcends every law of physics and biology.

Taking into account what was established for this scenario, If I had to write this special the first question to properly answer should be: what is there to tell? A last, last stand in the afterlife against Broly? Fine. So the second thing to answer or address should be what failed last time and one up it. In the end Broly wins, again, so this is pretty much a Broly wank. Broly is the main character here. So maybe something that could work is telling the story from his perspective. IMO this immediately solves the two biggest problems I mentioned before. You save many pages were you explain Goku's plan. Broly just finds weak enemies and kills them. Who were them and what were they doing there? Broly doesn't know. In the last pages he erases everyone just by powering up even more. You can even include some Broly wank for the fans. Maybe him just effortlessly tanking SS3 Gogeta, and telling him he's going to power up even more so Gogeta better try to stop him now. As an epilogue, you could say in 10 of our years Broly spends billions of years in a distorted space-time due to him powering up. Starving and being immobile for that long made him power down a bit to match current Vegetto.

Basically if you tell the story from Broly POV you don't have to explain anything and you can focus on the action and Broly wank.

I know it's easy to review in hindsight. I think you're a young writer and artist so be proud of being part of DBM and use this experience to learn. It also helps to surround yourself with people that can give you a good critic of your story before publishing it.

Damian Qualshy was saying: WHAT???
At least make him look older? They both look like teenagers. Actually, Shallot looks like he's a bit older than Yamoshi.
I don't care about Saiyan genetics, this is just crazy revelation.
It's because of his god ki?

Damian Qualshy was saying: MaddoxX was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: WHAT???
At least make him look older? They both look like teenagers. Actually, Shallot looks like he's a bit older than Yamoshi.
I don't care about Saiyan genetics, this is just crazy revelation.
Sayins don't age like humans do think of it this way maybe yamoshi is ~40 year old and both his sons are ~20 would make since seeing how yamoshi leads a pack and is well known and respected

Look at adult Gohan and tell me he doesn't look distinctly younger than adult Goku. Or what about Trunks and Vegeta?

These two (three) here, look about the same age. Yamoshi is depicted too young.

The again, if these are reminiscent of U6 Saiyans in DBS (which are supposed to be direct evolution of the ancient/good Saiyans), then I guess it does makes sense for their looks to be THAT way, more slimmer and whatnot, unlike modern Saiyans.
Give me a break, Goku has looked 23 for over 20 years.

Damian Qualshy was saying: WHAT???
At least make him look older? They both look like teenagers. Actually, Shallot looks like he's a bit older than Yamoshi.
I don't care about Saiyan genetics, this is just crazy revelation.
Sayins don't age like humans do think of it this way maybe yamoshi is ~40 year old and both his sons are ~20 would make since seeing how yamoshi leads a pack and is well known and respected

If a side story were released where Vegito appears instead of Gogeta and completely beat Broly, I think all the complaints would finally come to an end. It seems like people are overrating Gogeta too much, and that’s why there’s so much frustration.

You just HAD to open your big mouth didn't you?

In fact, his state was frozen until that moment, but when he woke up, all the time that had been frozen for him was instantly restored as soon as the ice was broken. So, as soon as he woke up, he got a huge instant boost of power that had been paused, like violently releasing a rubber band.

Notice tien says can’t waste time. I think this is a clue that they will enter the time chamber there are already 4 of them. Krillin goes in with Yamcha. Tien goes in with Chiatzou. They will probably not be able to withstand the time chamber but they have each other to train with inside so it should be more helpful training with someone than vs alone.

If time chamber made goku surpass the androids 17, 16, and cell second form which is a big gap between each then this training should boost the z warriors a few tiers above themselves. Maybe Krillin gets the same boost he got from guru when he goes into and leaves the chamber here going in with a power lv of 177 and leaving out with 11,000.

Super Gojita 3 was saying: so...the gang made things worse by doing something?

never mind the idea of just letting brolly burn through his life force with lssj, they had like what...10-15 years of mayhem?

just let him run his course and then use porunge and moori who are sitting in otherworld alive and waiting for brolly to die, they summon porunga when he is dead and just reset everything with the exception of brolly

even if brolly breaks the ice barrier that way, he already did so in this example.

I'm not a fan of the outcome or how anyone is portrayed, and I don't care what sal did with u20
Actually...that's a good point. Salagir commented on page 196 of the main comic that Broly's lifespan in LSSJ would be less than a year, so technically he should be dead by the time this comic takes place. But setting aside old/obscure comments, all the heroes really needed to do was just wait out Broly and the problem would resolve itself.

Pope Muffins was saying: mAc Chaos was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Now explain to me why Broly is stronger than the literal fabric of the universe. Because even for Salagir's depiction of the guy, this is absolutely awful.

Why does everyone vanish anyway? Technically, if this happened, then all the dimensions would be merged together instead of removed, no? I mean it had to start somehow, it's not like the universe just showed up like that with dimensions in place, someone created/split them (possibly Kaioshins) in the chaos.
This is in line with the Buu Saga, when Super Buu tried to scream so hard he would break all the boundaries between dimensions and destroy everything.

That was Buu breaking out of a pocket dimension (HBTC) and this is Broly surviving a reality erasure event, two different situations
No, I'm talking about when Super Buu was fighting Vegito. Vegito states that he's going to destroy everything by doing it (in the anime) and has to power up to stop him.

Here is the YT video of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQTEWUHhRrA

Pope Muffins was saying: mAc Chaos was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: Now explain to me why Broly is stronger than the literal fabric of the universe. Because even for Salagir's depiction of the guy, this is absolutely awful.

Why does everyone vanish anyway? Technically, if this happened, then all the dimensions would be merged together instead of removed, no? I mean it had to start somehow, it's not like the universe just showed up like that with dimensions in place, someone created/split them (possibly Kaioshins) in the chaos.
This is in line with the Buu Saga, when Super Buu tried to scream so hard he would break all the boundaries between dimensions and destroy everything.

That was Buu breaking out of a pocket dimension (HBTC) and this is Broly surviving a reality erasure event, two different situations

No he is referring to when buuhan was yelling so hard that the fabric of reality was tearing during the fight w vegetto

Damian Qualshy was saying: Previous chapter started with an immediate flashback following the events of the first one, and the author stated there that's how the chapters will start as well, iirc.

I've never seen this, I don't always dip into the comments and when I do I don't always read them all. It is kind of akin to that Plinkett review where he said explaining things in supplemental material is pretty useless for a person who is just watching the movie.

That said I intuited what was going on, I don't think it is a big deal.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Now explain to me why Broly is stronger than the literal fabric of the universe. Because even for Salagir's depiction of the guy, this is absolutely awful.

Why does everyone vanish anyway? Technically, if this happened, then all the dimensions would be merged together instead of removed, no? I mean it had to start somehow, it's not like the universe just showed up like that with dimensions in place, someone created/split them (possibly Kaioshins) in the chaos.
This is in line with the Buu Saga, when Super Buu tried to scream so hard he would break all the boundaries between dimensions and destroy everything.

if the author is reading this - ignore all the negative comments. I really enjoyed reading this story, and it was one of stories I looked forward to seeing new pages about! Everyone has different tastes, and while people above just felt like down voting it like crazy, just know you have a fan here :) great work!

The sad ending of universe 20. I always thought Broly was frozen due to wandering space so long. But to be frozen inanimated due to being responsible for a universe destruction is crazy work. So when he was sent back to universe 20 is he just turned to ice again since there is nothing in the reality of universe 20 anymore neither life and death.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: Matrixkid was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: There was only one timeline to choose from. These changes happened because Trunks traveled to it, much like what happened when he traveled to the past to save Goku (19 and 20/Gero appearing instead of 17 and 18, 17 and 18 being stronger than they were in the future, 16 joining the Cyborgs).
Pretty sure that Trunks's time travelling itself never actually changed anything, Trunks just thought it did due to his lack of understanding of time travel. This is all speculation on my part, but 19 and Gero were so weak that even in the future timeline, the Z-Fighters were able to beat them, and because of how short lived they were, Bulma probably never thought to bring them up. They still existed in both timelines.

16 was also probably around in the future timeline, but the difference in circumstances prevented the Androids from noticing him, leaving him locked up in the pod for all those decades.
As for 17/18 getting stronger, it's debated whether they actually are weaker in the future or not. Some say that just like when they killed Future Gohan, the Androids were just holding back against Trunks to toy around with him. And by the time Trunks could destroy them, he was too strong to tell the difference. Or, we could take DBM's logic that they got weaker over time.
My assumption was that Bulma didn't fully grasp true time travel yet and wound up creating a machine that splintered the timeline rather than change the future. It's probably a difficult thing to number down even for her, and she probably had some limits since her lab and Capsule Corp had seen better days. As for 16, he was probably inadvertently destroyed when 17 and 18 turned on Gero in Trunks's timeline or was relocated and lost, but the course of the past was altered enough that 16 found himself in 17 and 18's path, which gave them the idea to wake him up.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying:
Damian Qualshy was saying: Okay so it's not the unseen timeline, kind of lame. I hope it will be explained how and why this timeline changed and it WON'T be "Oh it's because of Trunks like in Z" because.. that is wrong.
If you're referring to that weird anomaly that altered the timeline slightly in Z (making 17 and 18 stronger, having them appear later and with 16 instead of just themselves) when you say 'Oh it's because of Trunks like in Z', I'm quite sure it's seemingly due to the equation Trunks's time machine runs on, and not due to Trunks himself. If Bulma was able to make a true time machine, their timeline would change, not branch off. I'm sure the math was difficult even for her, or she didn't have the time and/or worried about the Cyborgs knocking at her door and ruining her intents to change the future or something.

Sorry but this makes no sense. Why would the way the time machine works change how time travel works at all? You aren't inventing physics, you're inventing a machine that works with said physics.

The alterations, if there even were any as Matrixkid said, came from both Trunks and Cell being there (butterfly effect) but there shouldn't be any HERE just because Trunks showed up, and especially not to BEFORE he showed up. Otherwise each of all travels of Goku, Vegeta and Trunks in DBS would result in constant changes. But they didn't. They were locked to the timeline Trunks came from.

I also mentioned 16 situation in another comment, I guess on the previous page.
Oof, don't write comments when you're exhausted lol
Anyways I used words like 'math' and 'equation' because I was kinda thinking of how Einstein saw time and the universe and measured them. Surely deducing how to move through time would require an equation, physics, stuff like that. I've assumed Bulma's time machine isn't perfect, and that time travel is difficult even for her.

Speaking of the time machine, perhaps the alterations really were due to both Cell and Trunks both appearing in the past, but I suppose, theoretically, it's not impossible for Trunks's time machine to potentially cause a more drastic butterfly effect-like occurrence

Definitely could be caused by both time machines together after Trunks showed up when Cell was already there, I'm not denying that. And it also makes sense.

As for the time machine, I always imagined it that it can time travel once, and then be locked to the timeline it traveled so now it's "universe hopping" instead. Hence why Cell's machine got him exactly where he wanted to be but earlier, in the timeline where Trunks showed up before him. This would still work for the second Trunks by linking him to the changed timeline and not original, even in DBS, where he even traveled specifically to the same timeline that he was in before, but that theory was unfortunately broken by the usage of Cell's time machine afterwards.
Correct; When I mentioned 'Trunks's time machine' at the end, I meant 'alone'. My bad.
But yeah I do agree that it makes sense. Anyways, technically, the time machine can only travel once, since it requires fuel.

Basically, here's how I think it works and what happened: There are two ways of altering the past. One is to cause the timeline to splinter, technically creating a new universe where events happened differently, and the other overwrites the future you came from. Mortals like Bulma require a vessel but can figure out a way to travel to the past to change the future, but it's much much more difficult, if not impossible, to figure out how to ensure that vessel - a time machine - will be able to manipulate time in a way that can overwrite the future and keep the timeline from instead creating a new one. Traditionally, only divine beings like Gods of Destruction have the power over time that can overwrite the future, because of their greater standing from their statuses, however, items like Time Rings can protect a timeline from being overwritten, forcing the timeline to create a new splinter anyway. This is why Trunks's future still remained unchanged and still had Goku Black terrorizing Humanity, because he kept his Time Ring on, and would explain why Trunks's time machine can't change his future. It works on the same theory that gave birth to DBM, the multiverse theory.

With Cell, the reason why he was in the past was because he killed Trunks, as we know. I think the order of things goes something like this: Trunks gives Goku the medicine and returns to the past. He sees nothing has changed. At some point, Trunks kills 17 and 18 - either before or after he returns to the past again likely to make sure nothing went wrong despite his intervention. Either way, Cell sees the time machine and kills Trunks so he can travel to the past and become perfect as was his purpose. By encountering Trunks again in the past, he made Trunks aware of him, and by losing to Gohan later on, Cell doomed himself, making Trunks decide to use his newfound strength he built up by training in the past to destroy Cell after defeating 17 and 18. Doing so prevented his own death, and Cell from becoming perfect. Obviously, though, another splintering in the timeline would occur, or Cell would have ceased to exist.

I know it all gets very confusing and convoluted but an explanation is there. Nobody said it could be that simplified though lol

WongTing was saying: Pay attention. It's not a years later conversation.

Its obviously recently after Goku and Piccolo died and Raditz left.
I am paying attention. Comic etiquette dictates announcing a drastic change in story chronology; it's not to be left to the audience guessing. If this is years before the previous set of panels, you narrate the time difference.

Matrixkid was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying: There was only one timeline to choose from. These changes happened because Trunks traveled to it, much like what happened when he traveled to the past to save Goku (19 and 20/Gero appearing instead of 17 and 18, 17 and 18 being stronger than they were in the future, 16 joining the Cyborgs).
Pretty sure that Trunks's time travelling itself never actually changed anything, Trunks just thought it did due to his lack of understanding of time travel. This is all speculation on my part, but 19 and Gero were so weak that even in the future timeline, the Z-Fighters were able to beat them, and because of how short lived they were, Bulma probably never thought to bring them up. They still existed in both timelines.

16 was also probably around in the future timeline, but the difference in circumstances prevented the Androids from noticing him, leaving him locked up in the pod for all those decades.
As for 17/18 getting stronger, it's debated whether they actually are weaker in the future or not. Some say that just like when they killed Future Gohan, the Androids were just holding back against Trunks to toy around with him. And by the time Trunks could destroy them, he was too strong to tell the difference. Or, we could take DBM's logic that they got weaker over time.
My assumption was that Bulma didn't fully grasp true time travel yet and wound up creating a machine that splintered the timeline rather than change the future. It's probably a difficult thing to number down even for her, and she probably had some limits since her lab and Capsule Corp had seen better days. As for 16, he was probably inadvertently destroyed when 17 and 18 turned on Gero in Trunks's timeline or was relocated and lost, but the course of the past was altered enough that 16 found himself in 17 and 18's path, which gave them the idea to wake him up.

Damian Qualshy was saying: Teleported_Bread was saying:
Damian Qualshy was saying: Okay so it's not the unseen timeline, kind of lame. I hope it will be explained how and why this timeline changed and it WON'T be "Oh it's because of Trunks like in Z" because.. that is wrong.
If you're referring to that weird anomaly that altered the timeline slightly in Z (making 17 and 18 stronger, having them appear later and with 16 instead of just themselves) when you say 'Oh it's because of Trunks like in Z', I'm quite sure it's seemingly due to the equation Trunks's time machine runs on, and not due to Trunks himself. If Bulma was able to make a true time machine, their timeline would change, not branch off. I'm sure the math was difficult even for her, or she didn't have the time and/or worried about the Cyborgs knocking at her door and ruining her intents to change the future or something.

Sorry but this makes no sense. Why would the way the time machine works change how time travel works at all? You aren't inventing physics, you're inventing a machine that works with said physics.

The alterations, if there even were any as Matrixkid said, came from both Trunks and Cell being there (butterfly effect) but there shouldn't be any HERE just because Trunks showed up, and especially not to BEFORE he showed up. Otherwise each of all travels of Goku, Vegeta and Trunks in DBS would result in constant changes. But they didn't. They were locked to the timeline Trunks came from.

I also mentioned 16 situation in another comment, I guess on the previous page.
Oof, don't write comments when you're exhausted lol
Anyways I used words like 'math' and 'equation' because I was kinda thinking of how Einstein saw time and the universe and measured them. Surely deducing how to move through time would require an equation, physics, stuff like that. I've assumed Bulma's time machine isn't perfect, and that time travel is difficult even for her.

Speaking of the time machine, perhaps the alterations really were due to both Cell and Trunks both appearing in the past, but I suppose, theoretically, it's not impossible for Trunks's time machine to potentially cause a more drastic butterfly effect-like occurrence

Damian Qualshy was saying: ZenBuu was saying: What exactly is happening in panel 2? Where do the DBs come from?

And why are the Dragon Balls so small? Because they are ancient? The dragon is apparently called "Tornegat", so it's not Porunga. I'm interested in the backstory to this and how exactly Chilled has stolen this one DB.

Also, Yamoshi has better things to do as he says, but for some reason they have time to hang out?

The Namekian seems to have pulled out a bag which holds the dragon balls. It's very unclear, and the woman then holds one of them as well for some reason. And then they disappear.
Also aren't they the same size as Earth balls?
Kanyon was saying: ZenBuu was saying: What exactly is happening in panel 2? Where do the DBs come from?

And why are the Dragon Balls so small? Because they are ancient? The dragon is apparently called "Tornegat", so it's not Porunga. I'm interested in the backstory to this and how exactly Chilled has stolen this one DB.

Also, Yamoshi has better things to do as he says, but for some reason they have time to hang out?

In panel 1 you can see the Namekian using telekenesis to pull the dragonballs from their bag.
Yamoshi wanting to hangout is default setting I guess, and has to snap into seriousness when the time comes. I get it. I'm the same way lol.
Yeah, I realize he pulls it out of a bag, but you don't see this bag on the last page on either of them. And then they just disappear again. It's indeed a bit weird, same as the DBs being so small as the Earth DBs.

About Yamoshi hanging out: when he rushed to the Saiyan king, it seemed to be pretty urgent that they will go to war with those infected Saiyans. I mean, shouldn't they somehow prepare for this war?

I stand by my speculation last page, that this change is caused by another time travel other than the one Trunks and Mai just did. Someone time traveled to some point before this time, causing Goku Black to arrive earlier than expected. Similar to how Cell time traveled to some point before Trunks first arrived in Z, causing Trunks to arrive in a timeline with a dormant Cell.

What exactly is happening in panel 2? Where do the DBs come from?

And why are the Dragon Balls so small? Because they are ancient? The dragon is apparently called "Tornegat", so it's not Porunga. I'm interested in the backstory to this and how exactly Chilled has stolen this one DB.

Also, Yamoshi has better things to do as he says, but for some reason they have time to hang out?

Damian Qualshy was saying: Okay so it's not the unseen timeline, kind of lame. I hope it will be explained how and why this timeline changed and it WON'T be "Oh it's because of Trunks like in Z" because.. that is wrong.
If you're referring to that weird anomaly that altered the timeline slightly in Z (making 17 and 18 stronger, having them appear later and with 16 instead of just themselves) when you say 'Oh it's because of Trunks like in Z', I'm quite sure it's seemingly due to the equation Trunks's time machine runs on, and not due to Trunks himself. If Bulma was able to make a true time machine, their timeline would change, not branch off. I'm sure the math was difficult even for her, or she didn't have the time and/or worried about the Cyborgs knocking at her door and ruining her intents to change the future or something.

Damian Qualshy was saying: If we disregard the Z Fighters and other Ki users, Hercule IS the strongest human


Stronger than King Chapa and Pamput (the thai kickboxer that took down a wall with an elbow strike)? I...kind of doubt it.