Hello everyone!

So it starts, my journey here in DBMULTIVERSE.

Let me introduce to you, I am Bunga, and I'm a Designer from Portugal.

Friendly reminder that U18 Mystic Goku's powerlevel was show to be high enough to make U16 Vegetto jealous/envious on page 2169 and page 2383.

U7 Gast's powerlevel, U4 Zen Buu's powerlevel and U20 lssj Broly's powerlevel did not make U16 Vegetto jealous at all.

It's really worse in French.

IDK why people think this must be an imagined scenario in old kai's head, what I assumed and by far the simpler read would be that we skipped forward in time from the page old kai showed the potara to get to the present which is post IKL attack where Raditz contacts Kakarotto.

Not sure why people are hung up on gender whenever it's not stated.

"Stronger than you, be careful."

Not very helpful advice, Gohan.

There will be a Q&A livestream at saturday with Salagir, Arcady and Asura who will answer all your questions about the last two main chapters!

You can put all your question here in the comments and I will gather them and post the answers for you guys after the stream!

I think it's more than just keeping energy inside the body, they've mentioned the damage regular transformations do to body, and NSSJ (i guess?) negates that. I'd say it's like being calm on drugs vs. being calm while meditating

RealNate was saying: DBZFan92 was saying:

No one is cheating here.

No one said Goku "cheated". Seems you completely missed mx1mum's point

"Seems" you are being pedantic.

If we're going to be meticulous about it, this is not a new discussion.

Users on this forum have used the word "cheated" to describe Goku's training.

However, my overall point still applies.

Learning from someone else is not unfair, nor is it unique to Goku (if we include informal observations).

Especially when the student improves upon the teacher's lesson.

Which Goku did every single time. If we include the Buu Saga, Goku improved his own lesson.

Personal Theory:
People (especially western fans) seem to have the namek saga imprinted on their brains.

Their first memory of Dragon Ball was Goku beating up the Ginyu Force after training in space, recovering in the recovery chamber and turning Super Saiyan.

Therefore, their oldest DB memory involves Vegeta being the underdog and training to become a Super Saiyan to catch up to Goku.

Edit:
Mx1mum's "more rewarding if Vegeta wins" post applies here too.

I'm not arguing that learning things and using ones personal experiences isn't fair game. If that were the case you could find an excuse to discredit anyone thats ever achieved any goal in either Fiction or reality. We all have different opportunities and we all have a right to take advantage of them.

My problem more so lies with Vegeta making the statement that Goku has a "natural born talent" that he could never come close to competing with, no matter what he ever did or proceeds to do in life when to your point, there are plenty of things he could have done and still continue to do to come closer to his goals.

Whether we like it or not, Goku has had a variety of opportunities that don't allow for an accurate direct comparison to say who is the better natural talent. This doesn't discredit Goku, he's still superior one way or another by the end of the Buu Saga, but to say he's naturally superior the way Vegeta insinuates is absurd.

"Vegeta's Speech" to Goku comes at the end of a Saga where Goku has literally just come back from heaven after training in super natural circumstances with super natural people for 7 years and Vegeta's final conclusion is "Wow, this guy is just naturally better than me". This is my problem.

Part of Vegeta's revelation even comes from Goku being able to turn SSJ3 when by Goku's own admission, he was partially able to achieve only because his body had less limitations in other world.

Again, I think most of us understand the moral of the story.

It's because Goku was a genuinely good and open minded person that eventually allowed him the opportunities that he had, and no one can discredit his achievements because of that. However for Vegeta to say Goku is naturally better and there is nothing he could ever do to catch up is not only inaccurate, but more or less the antithesis of DB and Goku as a character.

Goku isn't strong just because he's naturally talented, he's strong because of his morals, humility, and willingness to work hard and do what it takes. 2/3 things Vegeta never had.

On the other hand Vegeta winning here does the opposite, it would bring Vegeta's character and in some ways the story of DB full circle.

DB is partially about working hard and being a humble and good person, these are the reasons, to your point, why Goku was always able to succeed. Having Vegeta finally genuinely adopt these morals and attitude in life and beat Goku would make sense the most, simply because he's finally organically and genuinely followed the example Goku has set for him.

Explain how it's pedantic to point out you misunderstood his point/opinion. Neither one of us used that word. We simply pointed out all the advantages that Goku has had besides "natural talent", and that we don't think they mean Vegeta can't ever catch up to Goku eventually. (Especially in Salagir's system that seems to have caps on each level).

No one is cheating here.

No one said Goku "cheated". Seems you completely missed mx1mum's point

RealNate was saying: FitMarshmellow was saying:
what a terrible reason for why he should win that goes against everything dragon ball stands for. thanks for making vegeta's defeat seem certain.

In theory, Vegeta's elite status would compound on top of his training, aka his:

>experience, effort, [and] preparation

Not because he works harder than Goku.

I distinguish that because, a lot of people like to argue that he's a harder worker than Goku.

As long as Goku remains "in character", they are equally hard working (best case scenario for Veggie, since Goku has more experience "working hard" to improve).

i just don't like that his "status" is what secures him the win, it's not really compelling story wise. hell, it's why i'm not a big fan of dbm falling into the power-scaling trap either, while people complain about power-creep in shonen, i'm of the mind that it works in dragon ball because of its primary idea of "there's always someone out there stronger than you"

what a terrible reason for why he should win that goes against everything dragon ball stands for. thanks for making vegeta's defeat seem certain.

I'm loving this art and this fight so much. It's some of the best of all worlds in this entire series and I'm lapping up every bit of it. I'd do the Dance of Respecting Mastery and Brilliance, but alas I'm just a comment section poster - I'm also fat lol.

I'm also looking forward to when mondocool finally narrates the completed version of this fight. We're close to the end now, but I have no idea how close. The first chapter of this fight is 32 pages long. I know there was a preamble and all of that, but it's still among one of the longest chapters in this whole series. This page is just #21 with 25 being a typical length. So 25-32 (or possibly longer) is possible. That means that this fight may not even end this week. It'd be great to read other participants impressions and thoughts on the whole fight, but I have a feeling the I'K'L finally being born is going to cut that very short.

This fight could go either way from what we know so far now. I want to say that Vegeta is still going to win somehow, but I'm betting my zeni on Goku. It's the most minute of observations and advantages that usually allows for Goku to win his tougher fights or to at least show some kind of dominance. He has multiple within this fight and outside of it that may be enough for him to just barely claim victory. I don't think it's brought up enough, but Vegeta is older than Goku. I know that as a saiyan he gets to stay in his prime until right before he's a super old man, but there has to be some kind of minor age-related penalty on the physical side when compared against someone of similar capabilities.

Vegeta is the first to voice the need to move beyond his current limit and that would mirror when he was the first one actively focusing on ascending beyond super saiyan. Great idea and since he's matured he actually hit the right path on his own this time around. Thing is, he likely unlocked super saiyan 3 first. I'm guessing that with Goku already having that form that he got to practice with and understand this ssj0 form first that they're using now. It may be why he's been more reluctant to use ki based attacks in this form while Vegeta has initiated them far more often and while expending far more energy doing so.

Vegeta has burned through so much energy during this fight and that may end up being his downfall. He started off so great with that beautiful elbow to the face combo. He's been putting on more heat and pressure, but he's been surprised three major times now. The after-image, the IT to grab his leg then wombo-combo him and now this concentrated kamehameha that has pierced then dissipated his final flash for a potentially upcoming and devastating blow on the next page.

The jury is still out on whether Goku actually forced the dissipation or if Vegeta decided to slyly let it go so that he can try a last minute dodge and counter-attack combo. Vegeta does favor using ki blasts more than Goku in their historical fights while Goku has always liked showing off what the unification of body and spirit can do along with his (stolen) techniques. Vegeta may finally get the win with 'Vegeta's Attack' here. Then again, Goku's last resort headbutt could be making a show here soon if the back-and-forth continues. Either way, this is a good fight and I'm enjoying it. No one should be mad with whoever the winner is, this is a pretty good showing.

2 questions. 1st. Does kaioken work now? Since it's a technique and therefore different then the transformation they are running with here?

SevenPuppet was saying: UnifiedEntity was saying: People saying "ass pull" incoming because th e prince of no one/entitled Saiyans won't possibly win despite not being a character in Dragonball till Much much later while characters like Piccolo fell to the way side. HES NOT THE MAIN CHARACTER. Goku still to this day hasn't made out on his promise to Krillin to beat widows peak ass since the Saiyan Saga. Lest y'all forgot, and it still annoys me, Goku didn't beat Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga and their Buu Saga fight was interrupted. Head to head wise, Goku hasn't one. But a fan fiction even.....is where y'all say, "Oh Goku will win again like always".....actually go back and read/watch Dragonball instead of crying about misconceptions myths of Dragonball.

Even in Super Goku gets thrashed in 90% of his fights. He's not even impressive anymore there when he and Vegeta arrives. It's just a matter of how fast will they lose.

To help your point; Beerus beat him. Toppo beat him. Golden Frieza beat him, Jiren beat him the first time, Kefla almost beat him. Goku isn't infallible, and at the end of Super Hero Vegeta actually wins.

Thank you for proving my point. Even in that crap, the writers made Vegeta win and had him say "finally" as if they fought before. Twas a mere training session and not a tournament but still.

You're indeed obsessing over this, and I see absolutely no reason to do so.

Everything they do is ki related. Every punch and kick, every movement, every tp. Counting a couple ki blasts as if they were THE thing to care about while ignoring literally everything else makes no sense to me. Even more so when we can't even see half of the battle as summarized in page 2186. We see 4 kicks and punches and they've done 100, and you're basing this over 3 blasts here or there. Just sayin.

Goku WILL win, but not cause Vegy did 3 steps more going to the bathroom this morning after sleeping 3min less lol

How amazing would it be if above Vegeta a genkidama appears ^^

Vegeta has used more Ki blasts/Ki expelling attacks than Goku

(not the first time I said this)

Vegeta

This page

Page 2237 and Page 2238 (same attack)

Page 2186 (mutual with Goku)

Page 2181 and Page 2182 (same attack)

Page 2180

Page 2177

Page 2176

Goku

2186 (mutual with Vegeta)

Page 2183 (with a teleportation spam)

Hopefully Goku will wake up and manage to avoid or tank the blast *since Vegeta should be drained more in terms of ki*.

... what? I know people love taking credit away from Toriyama but this is ridiculous.

Even ignoring the fact that Goku "entrusted" the kids basically cause he wasn't able to win himself,

The message at the end of DBZ is a pretty obvious one, as is Toriyama's about Goku. He isn't stronger cause he has friends, or a family, or wants to protect, or whatever. He's stronger cause he only cares about getting stronger for the sake of fighting something even stronger. It's his main quality and flaw.

Why? Even ignoring the fact that both got hit by it, like in most competitions if 2 competitors are roughly at the same level luck will play a major role on the result. The only moment when luck ain't relevant is when one side stomps the other. That one was more flamboyant than most luck related events on a battle, but every hit and every miss could change whenever there's an uncertainty.

For example something like "will he punch right or left? Agh dammit I think it's left but I'm not sure... yeah let's dodge left".... and then that gamble will pay up one way or the other on both sides, and the battle will have many moments like those that will balance the battle's outcome. And usually when one side is "losing" it will gamble more with high risk/high value strategies, which with some luck can also pay up.

tldr, every battle and most moments in a battle will depend on luck, so there's no reason to discard a result based on that.

This blow seemed relatively easy to block... What's going on, Goku?

Im loving this fight. The art is some of the best in the entire franchise. I really want Vegeta to win but I could easily see either of them take the win and I wouldn't be upset if Goku won.

Yeah that's fair. I admit I might have misunderstood a bit with your original comment. You're saying with DBM's supposed side effects that's why Goku's after life body/youth could give him an advantage. I personally refuse to believe Super Saiyan shortens your life span because IIRC Salagir got that from old Kai clearly talking about if they potara fused as Super Saiyans and thus literally couldn't de-transform for the rest of their life... but yeah that's just the way it is in DBM now I guess.

That is a very interesting point though, and I agree Salagir probably didn't intend it to be that deep, but I do wonder if that would give Goku an advantage. I personally would have to disagree with that alone giving him any type of advantage at this time, since to me it seems it would just make the "wall" come even earlier for Vegeta than Goku, compared to normal DB. I'm not entirely sure though honestly,
I'd have to go re-read that page where they first transform again. It's definitely an interesting thought

Soooooo, this form was supposed to maximize their potential, ki control, bla bla bla and now is fading away???? Ok...

How different is it from SSJ3 then? Isn't that time limited as well?

Zzzz

I'm confused Vegito's turn for what?

As far as I am aware, in DB lore itself Saiyans don't age much in adulthood until they hit a "wall" and rapidly become elderly. Goku's other world training itself could give him an advantage, his youth should have nothing to do with it until Vegeta hits that wall

Anyways, I'm choosing goku for my pick as to win due to his younger age. as he is younger, he should have more stamina as a result, and in the 1st round scuffle, goku got the better of vegeta, though thats not to say veggie can't pick up the W.

A tie, seemingly is possible if certain conditions are met, but I'm picking goku.

Goku hit his ceiling well before Vegeta. Don't forget that during the Buu Saga Vegeta didn't even have SSJ3, Goku did. Goku didn't have as far to go that he could go. So naturally the gap in power has closed and the victor is anyone's guess. Goku and Vegeta now are practically fighting at a level beyond a normal SSJ3.

You have a point. Though personally I think Vegeta has far more endurance than Goku. Endurance and stamina are two very different things. Where stamina is how long you can go overall, endurance is how long you can hold a single action. I’ve always considered Vegeta to have the most forward stopping power of the lot whereas Goku is better as stuff like swings and redirection.

A lot of people are predicting a draw, but I doubt that will happen. By the very nature of a tournament, a draw can't be allowed. If they were both stronger than the other two fighters in the semifinals, and they were both out because of a draw, then the winner in the end wouldn't be the strongest, defeating the purpose of a tournament. Now you could argue that Gast and XXI are stronger, but the point is that's supposed to be determined by the tournament.

If anyone, Vegeta, Gohan and Broly are the most naturally talented fighters in the series as they've need very little to no divine intervention to become as powerful as they are. Without King Kai (especially in the 7 year period he was dead) Goku wouldn't have been half as strong. The first year after Raditz I'll give him because you can say it sort of made up for Goku not being raised on planet Vegeta, but being dead for and training in otherworld 7 years is just insane when you think about it, and I'm surprised people barely use it against Goku in any Goku vs Vegeta arguments.

I can't agree with the second argument though. I mean, you can make up a canon where that is true, but nothing in dbz implies that imo, even if obviously it doesn't imply the opposite either. I think it's not an insane thought to believe the stronger they are the easier it may be to "unlock" the next transformation, but as we've seen with SSJ and SSJ2 , the actual trigger might need something beyond that and a favorable context. SSJ3 specially feels this way with the whole dead ki/alive ki thing. Maybe Goku alive wouldn't manage to unlock ssj3 until being way stronger than he was when he unlocked it, cause the conditions were really favorable while being dead.

DBM decided to do this, making Vegeta as strong, or stronger, than Goku at SSJ2, and then going with this new form "ignoring" SSJ3 (which he also learned but doesn't like).

Goku with less time will come out stronger. Give them the same time (DBM), Goku is no doubt much stronger. If for whatever reason they seem equal right now, is because Goku is holding back like he did in Majin saga and has something else under wraps

He wasnt talking about DBZ, but for this fight alone, where they seem equal. We have no idea what either of them are capable of. Maybe goku has reserves, maybe vegeta has more. You're making a hell of an assumption on this, and you're basing this assumption on the actions that an entirely different writer wrote 2 decades ago. Salagir is not Toriyama, and what he writes may not even come remotely close to what you expect. It's a prediction you're making, but certainly not a fact set in stone just yet.

ah, i was actually thinking about that when i wrote my comment but i must have forgot. i would say that goku's instant transmission requires concentration and energy to use, so i guess it balances out with vegeta's ki usage. we also have not seen goku directly fire blasts but nothing is implying that he used 0 blasts during the fight, in fact: in page 2186 you can see goku and vegeta clashing energy blasts point-blank, they're both likely using energy equally

if you're confused by the perspective/angle, keep in mind that in the previous page vegeta literally blasted himself up from the ground, pay attention to the crater in between them and the perspective makes more sense, he's at a 30-45 deg angle above ground relative to goku.

on another note, using fingers to push against the ki blast is NOT a flex here, this is completely consistent with their form's power: all their energy is within their body and they only let it out to boost their speed, defense, and offense, in this case goku is pushing against the blast by concentrating the opposing force into his fingers as opposed to pushing against it with his whole arm. his aim may not be to block it, but redirect it away in the most energy-efficient manner.

i guess now is a good time to bring up my predictions from early on in the battle: i expected vegeta to lose due to the difference in physical age between their bodies giving goku a slight advantage in stamina, my reason for thinking this is the seemingly deliberate choice in giving vegeta's cheeks some definition lines whereas the other Vegetas didn't seem to have it, presumably due to lack of access to the RoSaT. if you factor the 7 years between cell and buu as well as vegeta's use of the room more often than goku PLUS the fact that he's older by default, his resources are bound to run out faster than gokus. To add to that, i feel confident in how familiar i am with Salagir's writing style, each character's battles (for the most part) has been a character-developing matchup, and generally the theme is carried in later fights if they win, Vegeta's has been mainly confronting his past losses and showing the character growth he's gone through that allows him to overcome these past obstacles. Cell's was dudes who were as powerful as his cell games self...etc.

Goku's matches have been against "immortal" foes and about energy expenditure and efficiency. 17 being an android who in DBM doesn't actually have infinite energy, freeza who seems to have infinite youth (or the highest achievable biological pinnacle), uub is the reincarnation of buu, who was virtually immortal, but that fight as also about passing the torch much like Vegeta's fight is to show that he's truly surpassed expectations and has become a better person.

When you think about it, Goku never truly beat vegeta in a 1 on 1, he either needed friends' help or got knocked out while grabbing the senzu beans. Vegeta's issue with him was always being surpassed too fast "by a low class", and being forced to confront his flaws to get to the same level of enlightenment and power as our favorite monkey king, always playing catch up.

other than all these thoughts outlined, i don't think there is anything else to hint at a potential winner. the way i see it going is goku going down, getting cheered on by his family, and either Goku wins due to what i explained, or they tie. As much as i'd love to see Vegeta winning, i'd have to be super biased to give him the win, or asspull some "Secret technique" or whatever to give him the win. It'll continue being an equal match, but either goku eeks out the tiniest of edges due to his physical age being at least a decade younger than vegeta, who is approaching the rapid aging phase, or they both get knocked out and it's determined to be a tie.

There is no Debate.

Goku and Vegeta have reached a point of diminishing returns in their growth.

Therefore, the "next step" is maximizing energy efficiency with their new forms.

If energy efficiency is the goal of the new forms, then excessive expulsion of energy limits the effectiveness of the form.

Look at the fight, compare how many Ki Blasts Vegeta uses compared to Goku. He even misses the first one.

1st match: Goku and Vegeta both fight primal saiyans (one stronger than the other, but both below SSJ) not even a warm up.
2nd match: Goku knocked 17 with one punch while vegeta had a nice warm up reunion with trunks. (One stronger than the other, but both below SSJ2)
3rd match: Vegeta has a good sparring session with a version of his rival and gets some character development while Goku has a mental sparring session with Freeza which is good training(One stronger than the other, but both below SSJ3)

For the 4th match they faced an opponent of equal strength

4th match: Vegeta outsmarts Cell since they’re equal in strength and finally has a real fight. Goku on the other hand went hard on Ubb and got beat even harder.

It seemed to me like that beat down was the boost Goku needed to beat Vegeta.

I forgot how short and "is stubby the word?" they used to be at times

So I leave for over 2 months and come back and all I see is the fight that happened in a split second and the only way Goku could win a Fight against Vegeta, even Toyotaro and Toriyama agreed that Vegeta can win a fight with Goku with his MUI Vegeta's UE wins.

RealNate was saying: TrustMe was saying:
Tl;dr - while modern DB puts Vegeta as more of an equal to Goku than Z did, Dragon Ball is still a series spanning decades, and we cannot ignore how the characters were built in original series. Vegeta was not built as someone who can become Goku's true rival, as he was not created as someone with equal love for fighting, and it is that love for fighting that allows Goku to break through all his limits. He eats, breathes and sleeps martial arts, and that is why he is the MC of series focused on martial arts.



Did we watch the same show? Vegeta loves fighting just as much as Goku. He's a Saiyan after all, and the Prince of All Saiyans to boot. His constant drive to surpass Goku contradicts everything you just said.

Tl;dr - while modern DB puts Vegeta as more of an equal to Goku than Z did, Dragon Ball is still a series spanning decades, and we cannot ignore how the characters were built in original series. Vegeta was not built as someone who can become Goku's true rival, as he was not created as someone with equal love for fighting, and it is that love for fighting that allows Goku to break through all his limits. He eats, breathes and sleeps martial arts, and that is why he is the MC of series focused on martial arts.

I made some points within the reply itself.

All you did was quote others and nitpick a very small portion of my own reply.

Again, everyone knows its the Goku show, we'd just like to see something different. Especially with how much spotlight Vegeta gets as basically the series' second MC at this point.

I don't see how that's hard to understand.

As for what result would've been the most satisfying for me? I think a draw would be, not going to lie. Or a scene afterwards where they talk about the score between each other now and have it be in the hundreds or something like Dante and Vergil did in hell.

Did you start watching DB at OG, or Z?

The reason I ask, is because originally DB was not intended to be a series about rivalry between the two MCs, because there is only one true MC in DB - Goku. The series is about Goku, and Vegeta was included against Toriyama's wishes (he disliked Vegeta, but due to his popularity had to keep him in the story).

People who started watching DB at Z are often under the impression that Vegeta was always relevant in this series, but that is not the case. DB began as Goku's show, focused solely on Goku. Z gave more spotlight to other characters, and with Super we are back to Goku's show + sidekick Vegeta.

I am not saying Goku has to be the strongest in the series - no, but he has to be the best at getting stronger. Goku's point is not that he is "super strong dude", but rather that "there is no limit he can't break". Vegeta was never about that, he just does not have the same love for training and fighting that Goku does, as he admitted in his speech in Buu Saga. Goku fights to better himself, unlike Vegeta. Goku is happy when the enemy is stronger than him, but not Vegeta.

I'm sick of all the comments that say "Oh nooooo goku won" again.Can y'all mention one time that goku defeated vegeta in a one on one battle

I'd say Vegeta does have higher potential, but he's still a hard working underdog because he didn't get to

1. Train and learn with Roshi
2. Have the importance of training with and learning from a master instilled in him at a young age, since he was raised by Frieza for 2/3 of his life until meeting Goku
3. Have anyone around his level willing to train with him anyway until going to Earth
4. Train with Kami
5. Drink the sacred water
6. Train and learn with King Kai, learning to easily multiply his power, and the spirit bomb
7. Get a high enough Zenkai after Krillin almost kills him, even though his base was higher than Goku's at the time before Goku's healing pod zenkai, while Goku gets a much higher zenkai from the healing pod because reasons
8. Realize the importance of using Trunks as a training partner, the way Goku did with Gohan, because of the messed up way he was raised
9. Learn instant transmission
9. Be dead and training in the other world, with all its advantages, for 7 years

rapidge was saying:
It wasn't until recently I realized that Goku never actually beat Vegeta...this was a big deal.


He kinda did.

He was superior to Vegeta on Namek. Even went Supersaiyan. Could have defeated Vegeta there any Moment he wanted.

He was superior to Vegeta on the Cell Games. Could have defeated Vegeta there any Moment he wanted.

When he was knocked out by Majin Vegeta in the early Buu Saga - Goku thought they wouldn't "fight" anymore. So i can hardly count that as a genuine Loss. Also Goku could have went Supersaiyan Three and would have been superior once again.

He k~iiinnnda lost that one Time in the hyperbolic Liontamer, shortly before Vegeta angered Gohan enough so that Gohan threatened to murder Vegeta. (lol) This is already DBM-Fictiom, right ?
In the Hyperbolic Liontamer back there, Goku could have ALSO went Supersaiyan Three and would have defeated Vegeta quickly there.


And now ... ... ... this.

Seriously we will NEVER see Vegeta clearly beat Goku FOREVER - when both are pretty much equal AND are using the same State, Level, etc.

Maybe that is an "okay thing/Rule" of the Dragon Ball Universe - but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

And that's how you know it's a fan made comic.

Vegeta always beats Goku in a Dragon ball z.

Vegeta and his fans are in shambles after this defeat.

Even in fanfic he is still Goku's second

Vegeta will sadly never beat Goku where it counts

Goku vs uub. We saw something proficient. Goku held his own against techniques he's only saw once. Didn't even seem to have a problem maintaining ss3. Then again that was uub send off. A bit crazy to show something new and then have it instantly fail.

Northeal was saying: Uzurper was saying: Out of curiosity, what are your three most favorite matches in the tournament you've seen thus far? My list.
3. Cell vs. Tapion
2. Son Bra vs. Ginyu
1. Goku vs. Uub

5. Bardock vs King Cold
4. Vegeta vs Dr. Raichi
3. Cell vs Dabra
2. Uub vs Buu
1. Cell vs Tapion

No particular order:

Vegeta vs Raichi
Gast vs Raichi
Cell vs Dabura
Cell vs Bojack
Old man Goku vs Frieza

Uzurper was saying: Out of curiosity, what are your three most favorite matches in the tournament you've seen thus far? My list.
3. Cell vs. Tapion
2. Son Bra vs. Ginyu
1. Goku vs. Uub

5. Bardock vs King Cold
4. Vegeta vs Dr. Raichi
3. Cell vs Dabra
2. Uub vs Buu
1. Cell vs Tapion

Like that Fight between the Two Fire Nation Siblings in Avatar. Zuku(?) and Azula(?) were their Names ?

Wouldn't be surprised if this move is what cost Vegeta the fight.

When we had that page with Goku/Vegeta's thoughts on the new form, it was said that the destructive aura is a sign of ki leakage, which this new form is supposed to not have.

So I can see Vegeta not being able to maintain the form at its highest level due to just leaking out a bunch of his ki.

Would be a good fit IMO - Vegeta fans could say this does not make him weaker than Goku, just that he made a mistake. Goku having a better understanding of the form not to make such mistakes also fits with the canon (prime example SSB in Super, but if we want to use only pre-Super material, then Goku's FP SSJ vs Vegeta's SSJ Grade 2). And Vegeta losing his cool and making a mistake also sounds like something Vegeta would do.

Holy Superkami Dende in Heaven, will Vegeta by the MvP for ONCE in his entire Life, aside from being clearly superior ONCE in the Saiyan-Saga as Oozaru Vegeta ??


It is almost like the whole Universe of Dragonball-Fans is somehow "afraid" Nobody would like Goku anymore - and do not wanting to be Goku's Fans anymore, if Vegeta would clearly overwhelm and beat him for ONCE. x'D

It's not like Everyone would suddenly be Vegeta-Fanfolks forever and never like any other Character anymore. x'D

But OHOOOH is that State partially SO. FAST. that they partially can not follow their own Movements with their own Senses, Reflexes, etc. ??

So like who came up with this form/ when did they achieve it? (Did they both happen upon it independently both within the same timespan?) Cause it seems like this is their first fight with it, but it's kinda implied by vegeta that awhile ago he knew goku also had it. And if that's the case you'd think they would have had a match the moment they both learned it.

Who "discovered" the transformation first?

I think it's implied Vegeta was the originator based on the Pan comic.

However, Goku is the inventor of Mastered Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan Grade 4). Which has a similar principle, in my opinion.

Making Vegeta win now, at this point, in DBM (I don't care about other fanmangas), would just be bad writing. Goku lost against Vegeta on that rocky mountain cause that was a better story than Goku just magically training and winning against both. Goku "lost" against Majin Vegeta cause that was a better story than both handshacking, battling against fatty Bu together and winning right there. And Goku should win here cause Vegeta accepting the loss and closing his growth arc with it is a better story than making Vegeta win and brag about beating Goku (cough DBS cough) or back stepping and saying Goku ain't #1 anymore.

Can they do that? Yes. Should they do that? Probably like with this flashback, nope. Which is actually the most favorable argument in favor of Vegeta winning, they already made a mistake once in this fight, so why not twice.

How is Vegeta dominating? This is just the first set of attacks, we have a good chunk of the fight to go.

Vegeta should've win this battle... DBZ and DBS - Vegeta's base form has always been stronger than Goku - if they have unlocked all their potential, then Vegeta has a little bit of edge..

It was very clear Vegeta>Goku>>Broly in Superhero.

4restmaister was saying: alawolf was saying: Man. I hoped for a change that Vegeta wins this time
what does it mean "this time"? vegeta had won all previous fights with goku.
Sorry? in whichmanga?
In the first vegeta lose but was an unfair fight because goku had partners.. then in majin bu saga vegeta was humiliated,, others don't exist

If anything, it'd be more arbitrary the other way around, have Goku and Vegeta be stronger "just cuz".

if we go by the assumption that the second half of this page is the conclusion of the fight, I'm guessing the reasoning for goku winning will be that he's quite a bit younger than Vegeta.
— goku was already younger
— he took less time in the time chamber than vegeta did in total (vegeta did 2 days in the cell arc, goku barely finished 1)
— 7 years of no aging in other world
— if this new form's (lets call it Perfect SS) power depends on the level of SS that the user unlocks, then vegeta also had to toil and shorten his lifespan quite a bit to get to the level of SS3 before perfecting it into this state, while goku had already unlocked SS3 years prior. it could be that by gaining PSS vegeta was able to easily use SS3 thereafter so this point might be moot.
— ever since Asura became the main artist i think, if not prior, U18 Vegeta has been drawn with slight indentations on his cheeks to make him look slightly older, something that the younger U13 Vegeta doesn't have.
if the form's advantage is to remove any risks to lifespan and health that the super saiyan form/power creates, then building on that you'd think that the older a saiyan is the weaker they might be compared to their prime (throwback to Goku's mental battle with Freeza). so if we assume those two are dead even in power and the deciding factor is strategy/technique/physical capacity, then vegeta's disadvantage becomes pretty glaring here.

I hope this isn't the end already, flashbacks or not. Vegeta needs a good showing

But wasn't that popularity mostly centered around an internet meme where someone took a scene from a Scooby-Doo movie where Shaggy beat up a bike gang and put the DBS Ultimate Battle OST. on top of that scene rather than the actual DBS episode where Goku turned Ultra Instinct and fought Jiren?

What do you mean by DBM being "correct" in its choices? Cell lost to Vegeta and Cell was stronger.

A bunch of reasons actually...

— Goku has NEVER won against Vegeta in a real match, so here's the perfect time to do that.

— U18's old Vegeta is "mature" and aknowledged that Goku is #1. Making him lose here and accept that is the final step in his character growth. Giving him a win here is.. anticlimatic.

— DBM is "correct" in it's choices, which is why Ub can't win against Goku, Cell against Gohan or Vegeta, and a big etc... The only exception is magic, DBM's background plot and excuse to clear people that would screw the tournament's fun (aka obvious winners). But there's no magic involved here, and Goku is pressumed to be better and the "correct choice", so he will win.

— Vegeta shined against Cell. Both had a peaceful path to these semifinals, except the previous match. One, Vegeta, did many things and took the win against a Cell that's stronger than him. The other, Goku, was used as a punching ball until Ub KOed himself. That's not the last victory you can give to a fan favorite, much less DB's MC.

Meanwhile giving Vegeta the win would be... weird in many senses. Not saying "he can't win he's weaker! HUR DURR", it's just it barely makes sense considering DBM's storytelling, setup and behaviour until now.

The only good reason I can find is that the tournament is not the end of DBM, so some of those arguments can lose value if we move the goalposts to whatever XXI will do later. But still, sounds like a stretch since DBM's main characters are the U16 gang.

Majunia was saying: Goku is gonna win, and the final will be against XXI...however, a part of me hopes Salagir doesnt do the obvious!
But is the Obvious really the obvious? He would know most people would think he'd make Goku win and they would be upset that it was same old story, So the obvious thing to do would make Vegeta win and be different, So if you really want him to not do the obvious thing then he probably should have Goku win.

I'm almost certain Goku will win since he has yet to show off and Vegeta shined against Cell. However, I want to believe Salagir won't let us Vegeta fans feel disappointed.

Alright, I admit he actually said that (even though I think these numbers are absolutely ridiculous).

Still....