Skydrax was saying: You all calling this special "character assesination", how long have you been reading DBM? It's very clear Salagir never understood Toriyama, it's always been very clear he thinks Dragon Ball is one-dimensional and probably thinks it's "for kids".

This kind of edgy bullcrap has always been present in DBM.
This special is Salagir explaining why Mirai Gohan wasn't strong enough to defeat the Androids, he's "correcting" Dragon Ball. When in reality, Toriyama never cared about power scaling, he just wanted to tell a story. That's the job of a creator, to tell a story. He needed Mirai Gohan to die in order to work as an inspiration to Mirai Trunks. There's no need to explain why Gohan wasn't as strong as he end up being in the main timeline.
But Salagir clearly never got Dragon Ball. That's also why Vegetto is a dick.


So you're saying he's using this fancomic just as a vehicle for his own ideas promoted through the brand of Dragon Ball? And that some of his characters are either edgy or idealized alpha self-inserts? Or ways to sublimate certain desires through the guise of feminism and wokeism? Huh, what interesting ideas.

siksteen was saying: FishNChips was saying: Bido's such a stock henchman. Remember how he defected to Bojack's side the minute Bojack defeated Seggui?
I'm more impressed with the fact that you remember that dude's name lol
Not that hard if you pay some attention. :)

iron leaf was saying: Danjita was saying: Fun Fact, Vegeta has won literally every fight he's ever had with Goku.
Just thought I'd remind you all of that.Everyone knows that by now. Vegeta has won all on-screen (DB/DBZ/DBM) duels against Goku so far. I'm intentionally excluding other media like DBS or GT, etc. because it has no place here.

I can understand why some are still unhappy though. In all the battles between Goku and Vegeta, there was always something that still slowed them down and prevented them both from completely giving their all and holding nothing back. Either training, holding back a transformation, Sucker Punch, external help, etc.

Vegeta may have officially won all (3) duels with Goku up until this DBM tournament. But they don't feel deserved. Therefore, you can understand why many of Vegeta's fans now, of all times, sensed a chance for the Saiyan Prince to finally get his truly deserved victory over Goku. Both are not only mentally on the same wavelength in terms of training, fighting and getting stronger in general, but also because they are on the same level in terms of power level and have even discovered and used this new Form.


pofehof was saying: Watch out, the Vegeta fanboys are going to come out in droves to say how you're wrong.I would be very pleased if you did not provoke each other unnecessarily on this site. Some people just have different preferences and want different outcomes to this fight.


SeanTheGoober was saying: I still can’t get over the fact that Vegeta was smiling as he fell to the ground. I’m assuming that means he’s either accepted his defeat with grace, or he’s planning something.My guess is the former.

For so long, he wanted a real duel between the two of them, in which nobody holds anything back or external interventions interrupt their fight. He finally got that ultimate fight. And although he probably lost, he finally realizes which of the two is the better one under the same circumstances (same mentality about fighting, same power level). Like you said. Vegeta may have accepted defeat with grace for the first time.


What held one of them back in Saiyan Saga? They both used everything in their arsenal, if anything, Vegeta fans should feel even better about his W there cuz Kakarot had to pull out the "Jump That Hitta" Technique to save himself and the planet.

youcef was saying: Végéta is opening himself for a big fatal counterThis reminds me of page 2173, where Vegeta repeatedly punches Goku with the same fist until Goku takes advantage of it. (Sure, one hand is broken by now, which would explain this). Nevertheless, the paneling here seems as if Vegeta's predictable attack pattern is going to be his downfall, similar to the last chapter.


Grash was saying: This is called DragonBall MULTIVERSE. The selling point of this comic is the alternative universes and the What-if fights, and new characters. Spending a whole year on a fight between 2 well-known characters from the source manga is a little anticlimactic. Personally, Gast is my favorite character and I wouldn't mind spending a few months watching him fight someone interesting. He has telekinesis, binding spells and all kinds of psychic powers. Even XXI has reality warping powers. That is interesting and should take up multiple chapters. This, on the other hand, is just two generic saiyans punching a lot with the only innovation being Goku's jank dodon ray.Patience young Padawan.

This comic spent a lot of time with what-ifs fights in the past.
— A gigantic battle royale including Piccolo Daimao vs North Kaioshin or Videl vs Cell Junior for example.
— A long team battle between Majin Bra vs Gohan, Cell & Co.
— An innovative tournament fight between Vegeta and Dr. Raichi.
...
All this takes time to be told. And each time months, maybe even years, pass. Now it's time for Goku vs Vegeta. Don't worry, we'll get to Gast. Just be patient.


COsim was saying: Here is my take on it.

If reading the whole fight as a whole, and not a single page per few days - the fight is amazing. Sure it's a long one, but one long awaited one.

DarkClaw was saying: In the last few pages, I started to think this fight dragging out too long - then I decided to re-read it from the beginning, and I can say that it's by far the best fight in the whole comic - well done DBM team.
For anyone who felt like me, just give the whole thing a re-read.
Yup, I actually think the DBM tournament fights are far too short in general. Every time I recommend this comic to someone, one of the responses I always get, is ...
"Most tournament fights seem rushed."
Remember, those people have the opportunity to read over 2000 pages at their own leisure. And indeed, with the exception of the gag fights & the handful of very well staged battles like Vegeta vs Raichi, Vegetto vs Broly, Cell vs Dabura, etc, the fights don't seem long enough imo. I'm really glad it's really taking its time here.

Sorry, but I HATE this page.

Yeah the art is great as usual but... This is Goku vs Vegeta. This battle should be MAKING the memorable choreography. This battle should be CREATING the new references other battles will easter egg about. But instead we get Star Wars this, MGS that... Imo this battle is NOT the place for random easter eggs.

And while the SW one at least was used for something that created some progress, this page is both just a cheap easter egg and an empty page with literally nothing else for it. No progress. No content. No meaning. Just an easter egg.

In Tenshinhan vs Sun Wukong? Whatever. In Goku vs Vegeta? Just... Ugh...

They might be pulling the same thing the manga/anime did in the 21rst Budokai finale. They will have it be a double knock out but the first person who gets up and declares their victory will get the win.

Majunia was saying: Am I the only one who finds Gohan enjoying seeing his daughter enjoying violence...odd? not good or bad, just "odd", I get the point that he is glad she is not scared about her grampa and her "uncle" beating each other to deatd (like in the special), but the smile feels, well, odd, Gohan is a pacifist.
Or maybe I'm just looking too deep into this.

Btw, am I allowed to post this, or will I get banned for voicing an opinion?

Gohan wasn't a pacifist in the original DBZ, he just wasn't raised to fight like the other Z-warriors so he was more rational about it than they were. That pacifist thing was something TFS added. And while Gohan has admitted in DBM to not like fighting, he still dresses up like a superhero on occasion to fight bad guys when it's completely unnecessary.

However, the pacifist thing is somewhat irrelevant because if you go back on page 579 of DBM, Gohan says that while he doesn't like fighting, he understands that Pan has a similar relationship with fighting that Goku and Vegeta have and that if she's going down that path, he wants her to be prepared for it. It'd be like a normal person having no interest in guns, but being proud of their kid for being good at shooting.

I’m just saying, if Goku uses the Kaioken, everyone who referred to this as ‘protagonist plot armor’ or anything of the like needs to apologize.
It’s not plot-armor or some random ass-pull. The Kaioken makes a lot of sense. It probably makes more sense than literally any other option in this instance- especially if this new form is intended to remove the strain added by transformations. He feels closer to his base form now than he ever has as a super Saiyan. The Kaioken is completely justifiable.

And for those who are saddened that this might end in a similar fashion to their first fight? Sorry, but not that much. You are literally reading a fanmade manga about multiple what-if scenarios for a franchise that has gone an entirely different direction. Stop pretending this entire comic isn’t literally fan service. You want fan-service, just the same as everyone else. Only difference is… you want fan-service related to less explored concepts in DB, while most want fan service more akin to classic DBZ combat. You’re not better- you’re just quirky and kinda opinionated about your takes. Lmao
This comic is just an amalgamation of both commonly explored fan-service and lesser explored fan-service. I’m not saying there’s not love and care put into it, because there are definitely some unique concepts and interesting tropes thrown in- but you’re basically just mad it wasn’t your turn. XD

Sega was saying: My question is, why did this fight piss off Vegito?

Cuz Goku and Vegeta grew far more as individuals than Vegito ever did

Vegito may still be far above Goku & Vegeta, but individually the two of them were able to improve themselves drastically and reach a transformation he never could

Vegito stagnated with nobody powerful enough to fight him, he simply remained at "Level 3", Goku & Vegeta used the fact Gohan was above them to push themselves to go stronger, attaining something Vegito never could

but hey that's just a theory a game theory :D

Northeal was saying: mx1mum was saying: Northeal was saying: MrPerson0 was saying: TwoWordsMade3210 was saying: I always believed in the writers vision and story. Salagir doesn't miss.. Let him cook

Eh, I still disagree with him on the fact that Goku and Vegeta, in this form, are still weaker than Gohan. Hopefully he was referring to their highest Super Saiyan forms and this new Mystic form they found actually puts them above Gohan. At the very least, a fusion (dance or potara) of these two with this form should put them above U16 Vegito.

I can't agree there. How Goku and Vegeta talk about it, it seems that this form is equal to their ssj3 forms in physical strength. The way I see it Goku and Vegeta are pretty much near or at their physical limit here and instead of trying to go higher in strength they're trying to hone in and perfect the strength they already have. Getting rid of all of the strain and stamina draining of the ssj forms. It might make them faster but that could just be a stylistic choice.

So Gohan should still be above them. Although I don't think the gap is massive, nor do I think Salagir has the gap between Buu saga Goku and Gohan as big as how many people believe it to be. They're probably a little stronger than Super Buu at this point.

I don't see how anyone has this take.

Goku and Vegeta are literally so powerful here that they are able to move so fast that the majority of the cast blinked and missed it. Based on this alone, I think its meant to be implied that they are at the very LEAST equal to Gohan, if not, most likely stronger than him. I would't be surprised if they were close to SSJ or SSJ2 Bra level.

Remember, in Dragonball, Speed usually equates to power and vice versa, (Obviously except in the case of Trunks' Bulky SSJ form). 90% of the time, if you're so fast that people have a hard time seeing you, chances are your leagues above them in power, and even if they can see you, it's no guarantee that they can necessarily keep up with you in a fight.

For example, despite being no match for Cell, Gohan or Goku; Krillin, Yamacha, Tien, and Piccolo actually had no issue keeping up with watching Goku/Gohan vs Cell in the cell games.

In this fight, however, the gap is so large, that even someone as powerful as Piccolo (who is stronger than his Buu and Cell Saga self)was reduced to being the clueless spectator that Hercule was at the Cell games. Goku and Vegeta are so fast/powerful, that Gohan himself has a hard time articulating exactly what happened. The fight was so quick, that someone as powerful as Bra literally missed half of it before she realized what was going on. That my friend's, is an insane feat that not even Vegito accomplished in his fight with Broly.

I'm not saying they're Vegito level or anything, but to insinuate that they're still weaker than Gohan feels like way too much of a low ball estimation based on what we're seeing here.

Again, Piccolo is literally as clueless as Mr. Satan was as a spectator in the Cell games and Piccolo has a power level thats estimated to be around what Cell's was in the Cell Saga. THAT IS INSANE!

TBH I just don't think the speed thing is consistent enough to use it to say they're above Gohan. Especially since Gohan was easily able to keep up with it (not that he'd need to be stronger to do that). All the way back in the 21st budokai the strongest characters were moving so fast that normal humans couldn't follow them, yet in DBM people were able to keep up watching Vegetto vs Broly and Gotenks vs Buu. In the Buu saga humans could follow 18 and Mighty mask despite them being astronomically stronger than Jackie Chun. I figured this was just an effect thing to give the fight its own spin and make the characters more cool. My main thing is looking at how the characters talk about this form, and based on what Goku and Vegeta say (and how Salagir talks about it) it's physically equal to their ssj3s. Maybe slightly higher. I don't think they're significantly weaker to Gohan now but he's probably at least physically stronger. And they're definitely not stronger than Gast, Bra, or even Cell.

I would almost agree with you if it weren't for the fact that both Goku and Vegeta seem to have completely shocked everyone ,including Vegito, with their current feat. If this form was equal in Strength to SSJ3 I think Salagir would have portrayed this fight differently.

Had it been the case that they were SSJ3 level minus the power drain/exhaustion, the fight probably would have progressed like any other fight and the other participants/spectators would have simply commented on how much endurance the two fighters had as opposed to when they're in their SSJ3 transformations. Instead what we have so far is a fight that not even the average SSJ2 level fighter could comprehend. That alone tells me that this is far more than an efficient version of SSJ3.

I get what you're saying in regards to laymen being able to see fights vs not being able to see fights being inconsistent in DB in general, but I think it's important to acknowledge that the examples you've given from the Buu saga were most likely put into the storyline for convenience and a bit of comedic relief.

In the Buu Saga specifically, I believe Toriyama wanted to show how absurdly powerful the Z fighters had gotten compared to the rest of the earthlings and also make a joke about it, so he discarded the idea that audience shouldn't be able to follow what was happening for the sake of the gag.

Scenes like this are classic because of the comedic effect and the excitement of seeing how strong our heroes are compared to the rest of the world. However, I don't think they're meant to be taken seriously to the point where they should be used as references for speed feats in serious power scaling conversations.



On the other hand, in regards to the actual Fighters in DB, the story has consistently always made it a point to distinguish the more skilled/powerful spectators from the less skilled/powerful spectators by how easily they can keep up with whoever they're watching. So whether or not the unntrained civilians at the Budokai tenkaichi are able to follow is somewhat irrelevant, however once the story makes it a point to tell you that the real fighters are either shocked or aren't even keeping up, I think it's safe to say that the fighters in question are meant to be seen as at least comparable to way beyond whoever's watching.

Again, Idk exactly how strong they've gotten, but based off of everything we've gotten, to say they're barely stronger than when they're SSJ3 is a bit of an odd judgement imo lol.

They might not be as strong as Gohan or Bra, but all I know is this is the first time in the tournament (including when Bra went Majin) where anyone has exhibited this level of speed and strength and have gotten this kind of reaction.

I think where the fight "ends" is the actual mid point. They just slowed down enough for the audience. No official winner was declared. Those ki blast lingering around might play a part. We all know how Goku tends to let his guard down.

So basically they're implying that Super Saiyan forms had slowly been killing them.

Mino was saying: newhinhin was saying: Yup, no wonder Salagir said DBS stole his idea.
This is basically Ultra Instinct
This is nothing like ultra instinct. They learned to use all the power of their transformations in their base forms and stop the stamina drain and they can use their power to the max. It’s closer to the Perfected Super Saiyan Blue they use in the Super manga than to Ultra Instinct.
Super did not steal from DBM. Maybe they took some inspiration, but that's not a bad thing. This isn't even a worthwhile argument, this was seen or written way after Super came out.

WukongTheMighty was saying: Bra's left ab was saying: Been a lurker for 6 years. Never posted a comment before. Made an account just to say this.

Wukong, why are you even commenting if you're only going to post a constant storm of negativity, clearly in bad faith, without even bothering to consider any other viewpoints than your own, while actively attacking anyone who tries to interact with you, as well as the free fan comic you're actively going out of your way to read?

If you don't like it, don't read it. If you read it anyways and don't like it, one negative comment is enough. People aren't even interacting with you at this point because you're so unpleasant to speak to, and yet you still continue reposting more and more negative insults and toxicity towards both the creators and commenters alike. If the guy who was just posting screenshots showing the last special was largely traced from the manga got banned, then surely this behavior is banworthy, too, right?

There is no point spamming insults, negativity, and toxic discourse in the comments of a fan manga you manually navigated to and supposedly don't even like, nor is there any point keeping a person around on a forum where they are doing nothing but being combative and inflammatory towards both people who try to interact with them, and people who aren't, like Salagir and Asura who I'm sure have poured a lot of passion, sweat, blood, and tears into this fan work. If you have legitimate negative feedback to give, one comment is enough. I don't understand what psychosis is compelling you to act like an old man screaming at clouds in the comment section of a free fan work you yourself manually navigated to and can stop reading at any time.

It's called a discussion, don't like it then don't make it my problem.
I'm mostly just here because I like Asura's art and was a big fan of the story up until around Majin Bra, since then, I've find myself wishing that the writing was able to do it more justice than what often comes as a weird Deus Ex Machina at the end of everything. Surely you can't argue that Buu just getting sent home wasn't a Deus Ex Machina, right? I still like the story and I'm pretty much ready to ride things out to see where things end up going, but I just wish that it was handled a bit better, a lot of this stems from DBM being so old that many ideas that can be presented will be underwhelming no matter what the inevitable conclusion will end up being because imaginations have gone wild over the years.

If you want to "discuss" , discuss in better faith. So far you have taken to heart literally zero of the many points people have made to you, and have consistently fired back insults, sarcasm, or snotty remarks in response to perfectly valid talking points or "discussion" as you call it. As it stands, what you're doing isn't discussion - discussion is a two-way street, and if neither side is hearing what the other has to say, then there is no longer discussion, it's two people screaming at either side of a brick wall. And if the reasoning is heard, but the talking is not carried out in a civil way, then it's no longer a discussion, it's an argument, or worse, a fight. You are neither willing to hear out anything anyone else has to say, nor willing to carry yourself in a polite and civil manner, so it is neither discussion nor arguing, at this point, it's flaming.

As for your Zen Buu question, I see it the same way I saw the Son Bra vs Gast fight - Salagir found a way to explore all the possible routes, implications, and consequences of a scenario he found interesting, then after adequately exploring and portraying the scenario, hit the reset button on it so that it wouldn't majorly derail the plot and prevent him from telling the rest of the main story he wanted to tell. Events like those are not meant to be complete game-changers, they're more like little detours along the way, a sideshow, sidequest, or spectacle on the journey to the greater finish line, which has clearly been centered around Vegito and XXI for some time now. "What if Ginyu survived and swapped bodies with one of the most powerful characters", "What if the child of a fusion demigod fought a careful and calculated magic-brawler also born of fusion", "What if Buu absorbed everyone and everything of value in his universe and became chaotic neutral as a result", "What if all the villains across the timelines as well as some good guys became Majin and fought the remaining side characters, sans main characters who have already hogged too much screentime", these aren't main plot points for the overarching and primary story Salagir wants to tell, they're interesting what-if scenarios that, once explored, can be safely discarded and don't necessarily need to have deep-running consequences for the rest of the plot, as that would be suffocating to both the concept and storytelling for the rest of the work. If you wanted Buu to win the whole tournament, then sure, I guess I could see why you would be upset, but that's not being a critical reader, that's fanboyism, and you aren't evaluating the work for what it is - a collection of what-if scenarios and dream matchups throughout Dragon Ball's history and timelines, each of which can be explored in a vacuum and then discarded once finished.

I swear to god if you guys nitpick a good artist away from the project.

Rogeru was saying: El_Robot was saying:

nice!
me and tori sensei draw very similar LOL
I'm sure you do.

Teleported_Bread was saying: Go ahead, get pissed everybody.

No baiting arguments please. There was enough of that from the majin revolt.

I can tell you this wasn't 'impossible' for either let alone for son bra, as a number of scenarios were drafted where either could legit win. (And even wrote my long fair share)

I had no insight to how the fight would play out (and admittingly have some reservations how this was depicted) but everything was highlighted as to what could affect an encounter such as would Son Bra be even motivated to fight post majin, and would Gast see it as a means to achieve victory without having to fight etc. This isn't without risk of course as how this outcome occurred pushes bra's character in new uncharted territory.

That said I (well, we) would prefer to see people be constructive then 'get angry'

عمار was saying:
3- Stop breaking the forth wall! It's not funny when you do it, it's "cringy"! It might have been funny when Zen Buu do it, and it certainly was hilarious when King Piccolo do it. But it's not when you don't. You're not funny in general, you're cringe! Your whole existing is cringe! Both you & your U16 counterpart! I hate you! Why are you not died yet? Why do you even exist in the first place?!! Die! Just Die!!!

Pot calling the kettle black on this one. You’re having a one-sided conversation with a fictional character right now.

Cant we all just say we love DB and acknowledge its shitty writing

I'm baffled at the people confused at how Cell died from having his nucleus/core destroyed. Do they not understand what the words mean? It's Cell's most vulnerable spot, the most vital to its existence, destroying it would naturally instantly kill him. It's like Piccolo when he says 'destroy my head and that's it for me, as long as my head exists though I'll regenerate.' That nucleus was the equivalent of the head of a Namekian (which after all is where his regenerative abilities come from) and destroy it and you've destroyed Cell's 'head' and that's it for him.

SSJ2 in bursts? Is this Vegeta's hidden trump card he was talking about?

Please guys, don't forget rule #5.


RockmanXZ was saying: Regardless, Vegeta must have a hell of a powerup because this Cell was on Mystic Gohan level AND he got a zenkai boost after dying to Bra. I really don't see Vegeta winning this unless he outwits Cell or he is holding back something amazing!Aren't you contradicting yourself a little bit there? If Cell died, he can't receive a Zenkai Boost. And you don't get Zenkai from being revived. You have to recover from a life-threatening injury, otherwise it doesn't work. During the Majin Arc, it was once against Nedwook, and the second time with Gohan.
I'm pretty sure Vegeta's hiding something.

Whelp..... this special started off kicka$$.... but went downhill from there. Like i've said before... this special makes much more sense if events transpired AFTER HIS FIGHT with vegito in the tounrament. therefore this broly is already above ssj2 vegetto level and only getting stronger.So by the time hes in the black hole.. hes above or near ssj3 vegetto tier.

But anyway... WHOS EXCITED FOR THE TOUNRAMENT!?

Imagine if people got this mad about literally any other DBZ villain getting stronger through arbitrary and inconsistent mechanics. Buu himself could have been a character right out of Dr. Slump. Broly at least has an inherent mechanic by which his growing power makes sense.

People. He's supposed to be a powerful villain. Turn on your suspension of disbelief for a second, forget the movies, and just appreciate that he poses a threat.

I dunno why people are surprised. The '93 version of Broly has always been and always will be a garbage character who thrives in kindergarten level writing. He is the representation of the worst parts of the Dragon Ball lore. He is Cartman in the superhero episode of South Park making up powers on the spot to sound cooler. Any story revolving around the old school version of Broly was destined to be terrible, on accounts that it's about one of the shallowest characters ever made. The fact that DBM also made him invulnerable, because reasons, does not help things in the slightest. Sure, his power being maximumer was cool when you were like 6, but as soon as you developed those analytical skills, you staggered forward muttering "That's really dumb..."