Pokechess draws a diagram, Salagir explicitly states he thought about the motion, and the third panel clearly shows the energy ball being dragged around a wide arc. Still people come to misinterpret and argue. What a weird fandom.

Hey guyz. There's a giant swooping arc and energy trail in panel 3 that I'm going to ignore so I can complain about how the portal isn't working correctly- you know, if you ignore the giant swooping arc indicating movement and the energy trail. Then I figure I'll argue with people for a while about it, even after someone makes a picture explaining it.

That's... Now what Salagir said? Salagir said they wanted Gast to go around the portal. It's not what happens in that scene, though. Your headcanon has to fill the gap.
As Salagir and Asura said, it's not a biggie, it's just that it's hundreds or thousands of people carefully nitpicking details over details for days and days. It's a mistake, yes. Minimal. The page is still beautiful and works. At the same time, people are totally allowed to feel bugged by the error. As long as we are respectful.

Asura said this on DBM's discord:

gast turns around, retrieves his energy ball and goes back through the portal with it. He doesn't go behind or I don't know what. Neither I (nor Salagir apparently) paid attention to the direction of entry/exit probably because well....they're just magic portals, and the direction could be a bit like we wanted.

so we can consider this as a mistake

Even if it wasn't a joke: No, I don't care, and I'm fine with " it work like the action need to".

He's just firing a blast from that far away? Wonder what he's planning since he's already seen him redirect blasts with portals with ease twice. Doesn't seem that smart- but i guess he's planning something maybe?

BladedShard was saying: He's just firing a blast from that far away? Wonder what he's planning since he's already seen him redirect blasts with portals with ease twice. Doesn't seem that smart- but i guess he's planning something maybe?

Ki blasts that can be guided (like Yamcha's Spirit Balls) may be able to counter Janemba's portals.

I thought his teleport made another sound

Then again I haven't seen the movie in years

IMO movie Janemba was as strong as Super Buu. Which is why SSJ3 Goku wasn't completely outclassed. The abilities made it harder to handle than it should have.

I really hope Gast is just playing around here. I feel he should be way stronger than it appears he is. If this Janemba really is outclassing him so much that's going to be a huge disappointment since Gast single handedly disabled a raging Vegito.

Whatever power scaling you wanna use, I disagree that Gotenks could beat Janemba. He doesn't have the temperament nor the experience to handle such a fight.

Safe to say a number of fighters at the tournament could handle Janemba once they figured out his tricks (keeping in mind he could have more than the movie showed), and Gast seems to not be struggling at all, just testing the waters. All what you'd expect for the start of a fight.

Well three pages with huge Janemba panel attacking from the front... kind of boring.
I hope the cut has evil magic so Gast can't regenerate.

仅是剑客 was saying: Would the cut further hurt the audience?
And from the cover page, Gast has his own sword.
Are we gonna witness a sword fight? But both Janemba and Gast are not the type can be killed by cuts

I think it could but XXI would prevent it to not being threated to be eliminated from the tournament.

DBZFan92 was saying: WukongTheMighty was saying: DBZFan92 was saying: YellNinja1600 was saying: If this was movies scaling Janemba would be chowder lunch. This clearly written with a retcon power. Salagir version must be strong as Vegito, Broly, and Zen Buu.

Why? Gast isn't as powerful as any of them. He's got high power but he was getting tagged by newly-transformed SS3 Vegeta. It's his magic and techniques that make him one of the top contenders.

Don't sleep on the inexplicably high strength of freshly transformed ss3 Vegeta. This is the guy who went toe to toe with a Mystic Potara Fusion, was able to damage said fusion and eventually outlasted it.
Meanwhile Janemba fought a super saiyan 1 metamoran fusion who stonewalled and no diffed him.
Sure we probably aren't using the same logic but it's still extremely funny how weak Kakaditz was when you put things into perspective.
Two literal eight year olds in an inferior form (SS3) with an inferior fusion were superior to a foe who would destroy SS3 Goku. (Super Buu)

Still, going off the movie Janemba being nodiffed casually by SS1 Gogeta and U13 Vegeta's showing, it can be estimated that Vegeta here alone is somehow hundreds of times stronger than Fusion Reborn Janemba and SS3 Goku.

Somehow.
No wonder Vision Vegito was anxious to fight him.

Oh right, also going off what we know, Kakarot in his base should be around 2-4 times stronger than U18 Vegeta.
During their fight, Vegeta was visibly very damaged by Golden Oozaru Kakarot despite being in SS2.
normally this would be fine, but in DBM, Oozaru is only 2x increase while ss2 is a 10x increase.

U13 Vegeta is inexplicable in his power. Vegito should watch out.

Went toe to toe? He had an alright showing I guess, but Kakaditz was dominating the fight and laughing the whole time. He clearly would have won if not defused. We don't know exactly how powerful Mystic Raditz was either. The scaling did seem a little strange though I'll give you that. However, there's nothing to indicate Kakaditz was using his full base power, and hadn't transformed either.

I'm not following your logic with SSJ3 Vegeta >> M12 Goku. They would be comparable. If anything Goku would be stronger. He had been SS3 for longer at that point and absolutely wrecked a greater than Fat Buu level opponent. Gogeta in base would absolutely wreck the Kakaditz we saw too. Kakarotto and mystic Raditz =/= Goku and Vegeta.

Idk what to tell ya about Vegeta vs Kakarotto. Did Salagir state Oozaru is only 2x? What has he stated SSJ1 and 2 are? Kakarotto went Oozaru before SSJ. So whatever Salagir's SSJ1 boost is, it would be added on top of Oozaru Kakarotto who is double his normal base strength. Plus... Vegeta took everything SSJ Oozaru Kakarotto threw at him, and then won the fight... There is nothing to indicate U13 SSJ3 Vegeta is anything special compared to Buu saga SSJ3 Goku. And we already know U18 Vegeta is superior to U13 in every form. Some of the scaling has been weird sure, but that's because Salagir can't keep track of his own power scaling.

Salagir has stated that Oozaru is a 2x multiplier and that Vegeta when he outright stated (one of the only times anybody ever outright states a multiplier aside from the Kaioken) was just lying for no reason.
Oozaru being a 2x multiplier also means that Grandpa Gohan got killed by a Oozaru with a PL of twenty, too.

Salagir has previously stated that Super Saiyan is 50x, Super Saiyan 2 is 10x that (500x) and Super Saiyan 3 is 10x that (5000x).
Also, Vegeta didn't really take everything SSJ Oozaru Kakarot threw at him, the fight was incredibly short, it was a brief struggle that had Vegeta resort to removing Kakarot's tail even though he should've been bare minimum five times stronger than him. Their clash of energy left Vegeta visibly injured but Kakarot was spotless (And I doubt you could argue that his immortality would've healed him that fast).

Now, I don't personally believe this myself, because you could make a few calculations about how strong Kakaditz should be that would leave U13 Vegeta 20 times stronger than U18 Vegeta as a Super Saiyan 3 while U13 Vegeta is in his base form (because as you said, he did "alright", he was still able to actually visibly damage Kakaditz, which is something that just doesn't happen if you vastly outclass an opponent by an absurd degree), but it's just that everything about Kakarot and by extension Kakaditz is sorta goofy.

I'm also pretty sure that the Kakaditz we saw was meant to be Kakaditz at his full Ultimate Strength. Now if we go off the whole "Super Saiyan 3 is 5000x base" idea, and then go off the idea that Base Vegito was somewhere around Ultimate Gohan tier in base upon being born, and that the Ultimate "form" is superior to Super Saiyan 3 which would place that multiplier at at least at 5000x for both the fusion AND the ultimate state itself.
Ultimate Kakaditz should've been at least 25,000,000 times stronger than base Kakarot.
And U13 Vegeta was actually competing with that. Damaging him and clashing with him.

The powerscaling in this fancomic using its own internal logic is not good at all.

DBZFan92 was saying: YellNinja1600 was saying: If this was movies scaling Janemba would be chowder lunch. This clearly written with a retcon power. Salagir version must be strong as Vegito, Broly, and Zen Buu.

Why? Gast isn't as powerful as any of them. He's got high power but he was getting tagged by newly-transformed SS3 Vegeta. It's his magic and techniques that make him one of the top contenders.

Don't sleep on the inexplicably high strength of freshly transformed ss3 Vegeta. This is the guy who went toe to toe with a Mystic Potara Fusion, was able to damage said fusion and eventually outlasted it.
Meanwhile Janemba fought a super saiyan 1 metamoran fusion who stonewalled and no diffed him.
Sure we probably aren't using the same logic but it's still extremely funny how weak Kakaditz was when you put things into perspective.
Two literal eight year olds in an inferior form (SS3) with an inferior fusion were superior to a foe who would destroy SS3 Goku. (Super Buu)

Still, going off the movie Janemba being nodiffed casually by SS1 Gogeta and U13 Vegeta's showing, it can be estimated that Vegeta here alone is somehow hundreds of times stronger than Fusion Reborn Janemba and SS3 Goku.

Somehow.
No wonder Vision Vegito was anxious to fight him.

Oh right, also going off what we know, Kakarot in his base should be around 2-4 times stronger than U18 Vegeta.
During their fight, Vegeta was visibly very damaged by Golden Oozaru Kakarot despite being in SS2.
normally this would be fine, but in DBM, Oozaru is only 2x increase while ss2 is a 10x increase.

U13 Vegeta is inexplicable in his power. Vegito should watch out.

If this was movies scaling Janemba would be chowder lunch. This clearly written with a retcon power. Salagir version must be strong as Vegito, Broly, and Zen Buu.

DBZFan92 was saying: kaybag was saying: J.I.L was saying: It does bring up an interesting point. If Bra is the daughter of Goku and Vegeta... why is her nature so carnal? Like, we just except DBM's take on Bra being a real grey character. But why was she like that? Gohan and goten are pure hearted, and Trunks was never as agressive as bra. So why is Bra seem more like the natural daughter of U13 Kakarot and Vegeta, rather then main timeline goku and vegeta?

Because vegeta was stilll naughty and he raised her differently., Than u18 vegeta did the rest.

To be fair... He had already made his sacrifice to try to save his family, the world, and Goku, knowing he'd 100% go to hell (confirmed by Piccolo). He had already accepted he would be forever fused with Goku to protect those same things. The only other epiphany we saw after that was him finally admitting how great Goku was and that Goku was the best warrior at the time. I mean you're not wrong though, he still wasn't pure of heart or anything, definitely still had some "naughtiness" I'll give ya that.

Salagir's characterization of Vegetto hasn't made a ton of sense though imo. Vegetto is not "just" Goku and Vegeta, he is Vegetto. He is an entirely new being born into reality. He isn't more Goku or more Vegeta, he's the perfect combination of both in all facets. All that said, his mental issues can arise from him having so much absurd power, being born from magic, and going years without any competition while loving a good fight. This tournament also hasn't turned out anything like he thought it would. He lost in the second round because of magic, which he considers a cheap trick. He then had to deal with being subdued by magic in the most degrading manner, everyone demonizing him, literally standing over him, with some acting OOC to do so, when he was trying to protect them from Bra. All of this while he's the only one that's personally witnessed what she's capable of even without majinization. Plus add in the starving, now not even being at full power, and the reason for the latter being by magic means in a degrading manner AGAIN. After all of that, it will be interesting to see what finally breaks the dam.
Dissagree so strongly about your interpretation of who Vegito is. It's the same belief DBM has which I find erroneous. Vegito is just that - Goku & Vegeta as one being. He's not his own independent being. He's just the form of Goku and Vegeta when they merge together. Vegito is U16 Goku. Vegito is U16 Vegeta. Not their glorfied spawn or something.

J.I.L was saying: DBZFan92 was saying: kaybag was saying: J.I.L was saying: It does bring up an interesting point. If Bra is the daughter of Goku and Vegeta... why is her nature so carnal? Like, we just except DBM's take on Bra being a real grey character. But why was she like that? Gohan and goten are pure hearted, and Trunks was never as agressive as bra. So why is Bra seem more like the natural daughter of U13 Kakarot and Vegeta, rather then main timeline goku and vegeta?

Because vegeta was stilll naughty and he raised her differently., Than u18 vegeta did the rest.

To be fair... He had already made his sacrifice to try to save his family, the world, and Goku, knowing he'd 100% go to hell (confirmed by Piccolo). He had already accepted he would be forever fused with Goku to protect those same things. The only other epiphany we saw after that was him finally admitting how great Goku was and that Goku was the best warrior at the time. I mean you're not wrong though, he still wasn't pure of heart or anything, definitely still had some "naughtiness" I'll give ya that.

Salagir's characterization of Vegetto hasn't made a ton of sense though imo. Vegetto is not "just" Goku and Vegeta, he is Vegetto. He is an entirely new being born into reality. He isn't more Goku or more Vegeta, he's the perfect combination of both in all facets. All that said, his mental issues can arise from him having so much absurd power, being born from magic, and going years without any competition while loving a good fight. This tournament also hasn't turned out anything like he thought it would. He lost in the second round because of magic, which he considers a cheap trick. He then had to deal with being subdued by magic in the most degrading manner, everyone demonizing him, literally standing over him, with some acting OOC to do so, when he was trying to protect them from Bra. All of this while he's the only one that's personally witnessed what she's capable of even without majinization. Plus add in the starving, now not even being at full power, and the reason for the latter being by magic means in a degrading manner AGAIN. After all of that, it will be interesting to see what finally breaks the dam.
Dissagree so strongly about your interpretation of who Vegito is. It's the same belief DBM has which I find erroneous. Vegito is just that - Goku & Vegeta as one being. He's not his own independent being. He's just the form of Goku and Vegeta when they merge together. Vegito is U16 Goku. Vegito is U16 Vegeta. Not their glorfied spawn or something.

so this might be just salagirs interpretation, but vegetto does seem to be his own being, and is by vegettos own words in the novel as like having 2 fathers, but having 2 sets of memories.

While I'll respect your opinion that you disagree, its mostly because I also kind of disagree on the idea, even if its not the canon of dbm.

lets look at some other fusions as an example.

piccolo remained piccolo despite merging with nail and kami, one of which was just his other half, and he did for a time cite he was just a namekian who had forgotten his name, but went back to being called piccolo.

gast, however, is nail as the base who lost his identity completely. he knows he "was nail" but no longer identifies as that as his mind was seemingly overwritten by the 100 other nameks.

gotenks...just kinda does whatever the plot wanted. he can go ssj3 despite his fusion parts not being able to go even ssj2.

even with gotenks being able to do ghosts and other such amazing powers, the knowledge of that never seemed to transfer to his base parts. they never seemed to focus on what gotenks so powerful, even learning any of their powers, or even ssj2, let alone ssj3.

Gotenks seemed very much wanting to play with buu despite goten wanting to avenge his mother, though I wonder if trunks had anything to do with that. in the anime he seemed to talk goten into playing, I don't recall if the manga had anything to do with that, but even when gotenks witnessed his other mother bulma dead, he just kept goofing off.

I doubt trunks would goof off, when he dashed in to kick buu in the head when his dad was getting mauled by the fat buu.

So while fusion is a complicated structure with no set parameters as to how it affects the mind even among the same style, I think that it does seem to produce a beign that in the short term, can work towards the goals of its "parents" while splintering off into iys own thing in the long term.

And thats not an unreasonable stance, but I wouldn't mind hearing your position.

I told you. Breezing right past Vegito reacting to literally being shattered just for the status quo to return. Nothing ever has any consequences

J.I.L was saying: It does bring up an interesting point. If Bra is the daughter of Goku and Vegeta... why is her nature so carnal? Like, we just except DBM's take on Bra being a real grey character. But why was she like that? Gohan and goten are pure hearted, and Trunks was never as agressive as bra. So why is Bra seem more like the natural daughter of U13 Kakarot and Vegeta, rather then main timeline goku and vegeta?

Because vegeta was stilll naughty and he raised her differently., Than u18 vegeta did the rest.

Not quite (and this is the biggest problem with power levels in DBZ honestly and I think is the essence of "power levels are bullshit?" line). Frieza was many times stronger than Goku before Goku reached SSJ but yet Goku didn't get one-shotted. Raditz was 4-5x as high as Goku and Piccolo at the time and Raditz didn't "one-shot" either of them (though they did dominate). Gohan lands two basic punches and Cell was folding like laundry and completely losing his shit. That's definitely higher than 2x. Mind you Gohan would have lost to Cell if he didn't have SSJ2.

We still need an Asura-Redraw of Vegeta versus Cell though - and of this Chapter. ^.^




I - MUST (lol) - see this in Asura's excellent Artstyle. =)

DBZFan92 was saying: ssss was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: DBZFan92 was saying: ssss was saying:
Mystic Kakaditz can't transform.


Has Salagir stated this somewhere? If he hasn't, then we don't know that. In the manga, Elder Kai advises Goku not to go SSJ before a potara fusion with Gohan, but then says they probably won't even need to once they're transformed either, implying that the fusion could transform and still get some kind of boost. The fusion is an entirely new being after all, with an entirely new potential to fully unlock. He was created from half a "mystic" being, but he himself is not mystic. That's how I see it at least. It depends on what Salagir is going to do, but I have a feeling he'll also say a half mystic fusion can't go SSJ.

Elder Kai specifically said Gohan can transform but it wouldn't change anything for him. It's therefore implying that the transformation of Gokhan would either be a meaningless boost (halved or whatever because Gohan doesn't get anything from it), cosmetic change or simply unnecessary.

to my recollection, elder kai said that he can go ssj afterwards, but that it wouldn't be needed. he would already be strong enough.

https://cdn.dbsmanga.com/file/mangap/1063/20308000/1.jpg

Basically, the fusion seems to retain the power of the 2 fusion parts, but the mystic state gets over written.

so additional transformations stack after the post merging process.

I don't mind this as ssj looks cooler than mystic anyway.

Elder kai does not specifically state that the ssj transformation has no effect or reduced effects. he simply states that it won't be necesary. its basically like saying vegeta can go ssj vs cui on namek, but he won't need to, as his base form is enough.

I would like to hear sals thoughts on this.

what if old kai is wrong and the mystic state carries over?

I wouldn't mind this either.

Yeah, this is uncharted territory. I think the mystic state carries over because in DB and DBM canon, mystic looks to be treated as the new base of the individual (unlike where in DBS, it's treated as a transformation, but DBS isn't canon to DBM). Gohan, after unleashing his mystic power for the first time hasn't at any point been seen at the level of his Buu saga base again. Throughout his fight with Buutenks when he was getting beaten, he didn't revert back, his power remained constant. Even when Buu absorbed him, he seemed to absorb him as he was in his Ultimate form as his power as Buuhan showed, and it stayed that way (which could imply that since being absorbed carries over mystic, that fusion would as well). And throughout DBM, Gohan has always remained in Ultimate.

If the mystic doesn't carry over after fusion, not immediately anyway, that would mean that Kakaditz right now is just a fusion of base Kakarotto and base Raditz (however strong base Raditz is, I'm pretty sure he's around Ginyu Force level), which I guess would explain why he's currently getting beat by SSJ3 Vegeta.

I think it does carry over and he's just messing around, but it'll be interesting to see if Salagir expands on what effects transformations will have on him.

But no one is saying the power from the potential unlocked state doesn't carry over. Just that the potential unlock state itself doesn't carry over. Kakaditz is more powerful than mystic Raditz, so we already know he has a different full potential. Why would it be between previous base Raditz and base Kakarotto just because he could transform? As you yourself just said, potential unlocked Raditz IS base Raditz now. Raditz's previous base no longer exists so it's not a factor in fusing. It wouldn't be (base Kakarotto) x (base Raditz), it would still be (base Kakarotto) x (potential unlocked Raditz). Raditz has had his potential unlocked, but Kakaditz hasn't. The power carries over but the inability to get a boost from transforming doesn't. The only way I can see that making sense is if both components already had the ritual performed on them. However, like we discussed, Elder Kai states Gokhan can go SSJ and that they probably won't need to. Probably won't. It's not "you won't get any extra power from transforming once fused", it's "even without transforming after fusion, you'll probably be plenty powerful enough." I will say maybe since Raditz never unlocked SSJ, Kakaditz can't transform. I don't think that tracks though, since Vegito can use SSJ3.

However, all that said, I still think you'll be right for DBM canon, and that Salagir will say Kakaditz AND Gokhan wouldn't be able to go SSJ.

I agree with you, we're saying the same thing

Super Gojita 3 was saying: Damian Qualshy was saying: DBZFan92 was saying: ssss was saying:
Mystic Kakaditz can't transform.


Has Salagir stated this somewhere? If he hasn't, then we don't know that. In the manga, Elder Kai advises Goku not to go SSJ before a potara fusion with Gohan, but then says they probably won't even need to once they're transformed either, implying that the fusion could transform and still get some kind of boost. The fusion is an entirely new being after all, with an entirely new potential to fully unlock. He was created from half a "mystic" being, but he himself is not mystic. That's how I see it at least. It depends on what Salagir is going to do, but I have a feeling he'll also say a half mystic fusion can't go SSJ.

Elder Kai specifically said Gohan can transform but it wouldn't change anything for him. It's therefore implying that the transformation of Gokhan would either be a meaningless boost (halved or whatever because Gohan doesn't get anything from it), cosmetic change or simply unnecessary.

to my recollection, elder kai said that he can go ssj afterwards, but that it wouldn't be needed. he would already be strong enough.

https://cdn.dbsmanga.com/file/mangap/1063/20308000/1.jpg

Basically, the fusion seems to retain the power of the 2 fusion parts, but the mystic state gets over written.

so additional transformations stack after the post merging process.

I don't mind this as ssj looks cooler than mystic anyway.

Elder kai does not specifically state that the ssj transformation has no effect or reduced effects. he simply states that it won't be necesary. its basically like saying vegeta can go ssj vs cui on namek, but he won't need to, as his base form is enough.

I would like to hear sals thoughts on this.

what if old kai is wrong and the mystic state carries over?

I wouldn't mind this either.

Yeah, this is uncharted territory. I think the mystic state carries over because in DB and DBM canon, mystic looks to be treated as the new base of the individual (unlike where in DBS, it's treated as a transformation, but DBS isn't canon to DBM). Gohan, after unleashing his mystic power for the first time hasn't at any point been seen at the level of his Buu saga base again. Throughout his fight with Buutenks when he was getting beaten, he didn't revert back, his power remained constant. Even when Buu absorbed him, he seemed to absorb him as he was in his Ultimate form as his power as Buuhan showed, and it stayed that way (which could imply that since being absorbed carries over mystic, that fusion would as well). And throughout DBM, Gohan has always remained in Ultimate.

If the mystic doesn't carry over after fusion, not immediately anyway, that would mean that Kakaditz right now is just a fusion of base Kakarotto and base Raditz (however strong base Raditz is, I'm pretty sure he's around Ginyu Force level), which I guess would explain why he's currently getting beat by SSJ3 Vegeta.

I think it does carry over and he's just messing around, but it'll be interesting to see if Salagir expands on what effects transformations will have on him.

DBZFan92 was saying: ssss was saying:
Mystic Kakaditz can't transform.


Has Salagir stated this somewhere? If he hasn't, then we don't know that. In the manga, Elder Kai advises Goku not to go SSJ before a potara fusion with Gohan, but then says they probably won't even need to once they're transformed either, implying that the fusion could transform and still get some kind of boost. The fusion is an entirely new being after all, with an entirely new potential to fully unlock. He was created from half a "mystic" being, but he himself is not mystic. That's how I see it at least. It depends on what Salagir is going to do, but I have a feeling he'll also say a half mystic fusion can't go SSJ.

Elder Kai specifically said Gohan can transform but it wouldn't change anything for him. It's therefore implying that the transformation of Gokhan would either be a meaningless boost (halved or whatever because Gohan doesn't get anything from it), cosmetic change or simply unnecessary.

DBZFan92 was saying: ssss was saying:
Mystic Kakaditz can't transform.


Has Salagir stated this somewhere? If he hasn't, then we don't know that. In the manga, Elder Kai advises Goku not to go SSJ before a potara fusion with Gohan, but then says they probably won't even need to once they're transformed either, implying that the fusion could transform and still get some kind of boost. The fusion is an entirely new being after all, with an entirely new potential to fully unlock. He was created from half a "mystic" being, but he himself is not mystic. That's how I see it at least. It depends on what Salagir is going to do, but I have a feeling he'll also say a half mystic fusion can't go SSJ.

You're right, Old Kai does say they'd still be able to transform into SSJ after they fuse, I forgot about that.Yeah, unless DBM changes canon, he should still be able to boost with SSJ too (which might make him stronger than SSJ2 Vegetto, definitely stronger than SSJ1).

As for whether Kakaditz himself is mystic or not, he has the same shiny hair that Raditz did after he unleashed his Ultimate power so I think he's already in his mystic.

Mystic Kakaditz can't transform.

"What should we call this form?"

It's mystic. It's a naturally acquired mystic instead of a magically acquired one. The characters have already said this, I don't understand the confusion. Why not just call it Mystic Super Saiyan? Is it because mystic implies magic? Because that's the only reason I could think to not use that label.

ShadyDoorags was saying: "What should we call this form?"

It's mystic.


But isn't that the Name of the State that Gohan is in ... ... ?


How about Super Mysterious Saiyan then ? lol If it is so mythical that it is mystic.

That's... an interesting page setup.

I would've expected a smaller Goku and Vegy to actually give the focus to the handshake, since you know all this was about how equal they were and being sport and accepting defeat and all that... but somehow the handshake is barely visible, Vegy is almost on the background, but Goku is made into the absolute focus of the page and from a really dominating angle.

Wonder why.

I don't know about "much more", but I do wonder if the shoe was on the other foot, would Vegeta help Goku up? That is a very interesting thing to think about and it would be a huge deal if the answer to the question was "yes".

And wholesome bromance. Love it.

DBZFan92 was saying: IMO this page would have been so much more impactful if Vegeta had won and was the one helping Goku up. Wish they would have surprised us
That wouldn't have been a surprise, man. This is Goku's first legit win against Vegeta. This is impactful/

DBZFan92 was saying: You see anyone saying "wow James you sure changed my mind! Now I'm happy Vegeta lost"? Again, you're not wrong, they very well could change their minds, but he watched the same series you did. He's thought about it as much as you have. Also he was literally being the "spokesperson" for Vegeta fans in his post you responded to. Forgive me for having read his posts for years and thinking I know his thoughts on the matter pretty well. If you want to claim that's arrogance you go for it.


Has this become a forum for personal validation? I am not taking issue with your interpersonal relationships or calling such connections arrogant.

I am stunned that you have transformed into not only their spokesperson but everybody's else. My disagreement with their opinion does negate it but it can lead to his, her or any other reader changing their minds and re-evaluating their position. That is up to them and not you. You saying, again and again, that nothing will change this is just arrogance at this point.

I keep highlighting the statements I take particular issue with. But you keep missing what I am saying by being unable to distinguish separate points from one another. Stop shifting the goal posts.
DBZFan92 was saying: I was also referring to "it doesn't change anything", as to the events themselves he stated happened in the series.
>"Nothing you've said is incorrect. But like I said, it doesn't change anything he said,"
In the context of your reply, that is not what is communicated. When you make a total encompassing statement about two people's posts and in the same breath confer affirmation and denial, what is one to infer from that? I keep repeating myself here. Your statements contradict themselves. If they did not, I would not have a problem with it. Everything after this statement was you justifying the desire to see Vegeta win which I, again, have no issues with.

DBZFan92 was saying: Your analysis doesn't change the events that happened in the story itself, but you have a different interpretation of them and that's fine. Nothing you said changes the actual events themselves that Pheonix referenced, therefore he is highly unlikely to change his opinion.

I am not saying that my interpretation changes the actual events. Interpretations of referenced events can be changed because opinions are not absolute which we agree on. Particularly when descriptions vary from one person to another. That is all.

DBZFan92 was saying: If you can't see how they relate then I don't know what to tell ya. In my opinion, which you asked for, they most certainly do. Yes, it's technically untrue to say "always"... although he lags behind Goku for 90% of the series. [...]It's a bit of an exaggeration to say "always" sure, but not by much.

Your reluctance is palpable. I feel that if you had the humility to admit even just one of those statements to be incorrect earlier, we would not be having this discussion.

DBZFan92 was saying: You wanted to say it was egregious that I was supposedly stating my opinion as fact, so I was trying to make it clear that almost everything I said (that wasn't specific things that happened in the series) is my opinion.

No, earlier I said it was egregious that you said very specific statements, twice, that were contradictory and seemed to ignore what I said, not that your entire opinion was fact. There is a difference between defense of parts vs the whole. I know your opinion is opinion. But what is baffling to me is when you you keep defending small factual assertions and contradictions in those opinions repeatedly.

This is made worse when you keep bringing up irrelevant topics as thinly veiled shields. In this instance, even though I quoted specific statements, in the context of your reply you bringing up your opinion on Vegeta's character development, even though it was a previous isolated reply to my stance as a Vegeta fan.

Your opinion on the superhero movie was not stated like the ones I am taking issue with. You keep trying to bog down the conversation in tangents. Of the two of us, you are the only one who has made factual, contradictory statements on personal interpretation of DB(Z) and DBM when replying to opinion.
>"This was eloquently put, but it doesn't change anything he said."
>"Nothing you've said is incorrect. But like I said, it doesn't change anything he said,"
>"but everything I said about the fight itself is a fact."
>"like I said, nothing you said changes that opinion"
>"Everything I stated about the fight itself is factual."
DBZFan92 was saying: Good thing I didn't do that then huh?
>"Everything I stated about the fight itself is factual."
You did. These are your words. You prefaced your summary of the fight as an absolute truth. Again:

Here is what you actually said:
>As I said, if you perceived them as being equals I understand, but as I also said "I DON'T THINK the fight portrayed them as such."

This end point was referencing our earlier discussion regarding our differing visions of the fight. It is one that uses the previous self-proclaimed factual description as a supporting argument. But it itself is not presented as fact or inconsistent. The problem here is once again, you keep bringing up separate opinion points like this in bizarre attempts to misdirect away from what I am saying.

If there's anything this debate has taught me, is that you you were very clear on what you wanted to share and consistent in your communication style. You are very stubborn though.

And I respect you and your viewpoint, even though parts of your tone turned into mockery in this reply. I merely disagree with some very specific statements that you defend seemingly to the bitter end.
DBZFan92 was saying: If you want to claim it's "egregious" and "arrogant" to state my opinion along with stating actual events from the story and this fight, having a different thought process than you, while you laughably simultaneously claim you "sufficiently disproved" Pheonix and I's opinion, well then you go for it buddy.
Opinions can be shocking. Opinions can be self-important. They can be many things. But that is not to say that the person themselves are nor am I saying it is shocking or arrogant for you to state your opinion. The only one claiming such, and taking personal offense to that delusion, is you.

You have taken this far too personally since one of your takeaways from this is that I am somehow against different perspectives.

I did not claim I disproved your or their entire opinion, only parts of it. Please learn these differences and stop being sensitive to the idea that maybe you could be mistaken in something. Thank you.

Not surprised Goku won but I didn't expect it to be like this. I'm kind of questioning why they did the fight the way they did if the ending was going to be so definitive. In hindsight this was nearly a perfect fight but I think their positions after the initial clash should have been reversed. As is you have Vegeta being downed twice and being counted down twice with him staying down for the second count. Would have been better(in my opinion at least) for Goku to go down the first time and get back up and have Vegeta go down the second time and not get back up. The theme of the fight is just supposed to be that they are nearly dead equal and with Vegeta being the one to be downed twice it kind of undermines that.

I am stunned that you have transformed into not only their spokesperson but everybody's else. My disagreement with their opinion does negate it but it can lead to his, her or any other reader changing their minds and re-evaluating their position. That is up to them and not you. You saying, again and again, that nothing will change this is just arrogance at this point.

You also keep deliberately conflating separate issues here. He said that Vegeta always lags behind Goku which we know from their history to be untrue but, you keep attempting to bind your desire to see Vegeta win to that argument as if one small thing being wrong somehow means Vegeta will lose.

And I was not talking, refuting or looking for an argument about that. Our positions on the character were clear. You keep bringing up and conflating separate unrelated issues. You keep bringing up and conflating separate unrelated issues.

I am not taking issue with what you see with the fight. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all. Your interpretation of the fight however, does not make it any more true than my or anyone else's, short of Salagir and Asura themselves. Please do not make statements that make you appear to be the authority on this. That is all I ask.

DBZFan92 was saying: It's completely nonsensical to count Vegeta tricking Goku and surprise knocking him out as a "win" for Vegeta. Especially when Goku had SS3 in his back pocket.Yes, and Goku knocked out Vegeta with just one punch thanks to the SSJ3. .... Wait, hold on. That didn't happen.

That's the crucial point. We're not talking about whether someone is hypothetically stronger than someone else at any given time. We're talking about what actually happened. The fact is, Majin Vegeta was standing, and Goku was unconscious on the ground. How did that happen? Just like that? Goku decided he wanted to take a nap and laid down? No. Vegeta knocked Goku out. Could Goku have ended the fight at any point before that if he wanted to? Yes. Did he do it? No. Therefore, it's officially a win for Vegeta, even though he was of course weaker than Goku at the time. Just like with Cell vs Vegeta in the DBM quarterfinals. Vegeta may not see the win over Cell as deserved given the way he won. Nonetheless, it counts as a win for Vegeta.

It's completely irrelevant what the characters (or us viewers) think and feel about it. The facts don't care about feelings at all. Vegeta won the fight. Regardless of whether he liked it. Of course he didn't like it, he even said so afterwards. I don't understand the confusion of some people. Of course Vegeta wants a real fight with Goku since the Saiyan arc. That's what most people understand. Nonetheless, Vegeta has won every fight with Goku so far, whether taken seriously or not, whether interrupted or not, whether dirty tricks were used or not, etc.

DBZFan92 was saying: Look I get what you're saying. I can respect it. Nothing you've said is incorrect. But like I said, it doesn't change anything he said
DBZFan92 was saying: Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree. I definitely understand you perceiving it that way, but everything I said about the fight itself is a fact.
When someone makes absolute statements, which I would say that I sufficiently disproved, you deliberately giving the impression you have read what I have said but then blatantly ignoring it so you can reaffirm it, twice, is nothing short of egregious and an oxymoron. I can respect your decision to not change your mind but if you are going to present your opinions as factual then there is nothing further to discuss.

Vegeta won their first fight, but ultimately lost the battle.

Nothing after that counts. Even Vegeta would tell you that. If they hadn't been fighting right before Vegeta cheapshotted Goku, nobody would call it a won fight.

Vegeta certainly wouldn't call that cheapshot a victory, and especially not after seeing what Goku didn't consider Vegeta worthy of.

People are straight up ignoring the characters if you think Vegeta would think his deceit counts as a victory. It'd be like saying Super Perfect Cell beat Trunks when he killed him. Obviously he could have.

Vegeta is so second-fiddle to Goku that he's literally the trope for it.

Anyway!! That really isn't why I wanted to comment today: Upper right panel is almost like Vegeta is participating in the count-out.

Imagine a TFS scene of this, and that's exactly what they'd do. :)

His third point is about the fans wanting a win. Perhaps I am in the minority of fans who are fine with Vegeta not shaping his existence through the idea of strength and being finally happy and free from the shackles of his past. He has left the evil and tyranny of Freeza and the Saiya-jin race behind and he can fight against his friend for fun rather than for vengeance or petty personal vendettas since that does not define his character any more. To me the fights are part of the journey and are not the necessary endpoint for the culmination of it.

His fifth point is about Vegeta being an antagonist punching bag to make Goku look good. This circles back to the second point. You might as well say that everybody else, including Goku, is a punching bag for the villains. It's a team effort and they barely win most of the time anyway. Taking particular issue with one character getting pummeled when everybody goes through the same or worse seems unnecessary.

I guess we can agree to disagree about the fight. I perceived it to be an intense series of back and forth blows where the fight could of gone either way.

FantomPhoenix was saying: The issue is that Vegeta, despite never officially losing to Goku, is always lagging behind him so badly and has such a bad track record at being the Earth's last line of defence, that even Bulma in DB Super has zero faith in him and places it all into Goku.

So there's a reason for Vegeta fans wanting a win. Vegeta considered the Oozaru cheating, he cheap shotted Ssj2 Goku as Majin and Goku was holding back ssj3 the entire time meaning he didn't think Vegeta was even worth the effort, and in that movie a lot of people believe Goku let Vegeta win.

That's why Vegeta fans crave a zero BS Vegeta win over Goku. They've never gotten one and he's been in the number two/antagonist punching bag spot to make Goku look good for so many years that it would be a subversion of expectations to see Vegeta win.
In the original series, the reason why the gap between the two widened so significantly was because of a difference in philosophy, mentality and extraordinary circumstances. Goku is the quintessential character that defies the idea that your birth defines who you are in life. If you dedicate yourself to improvement, reflection and willingness to learn from others, you can go beyond your limits and surpass anyone. Vegeta at the beginning of the series was a character centered around strength. His saiyan-jin upbringing combined with his service to Freeza made him build a mindset that does not rely on others for support. Allies, yes. Friends, No. Much like Freeza himself, if his own strength were to be insufficient, his confidence and pride would collapse leading to increasingly desperate actions. This would influence his decision making during his life and it is not until Majin Boo, that Vegeta finally breaks free from that.

On Vegeta and Goku's first encounter, Vegeta was the overall more powerful fighter. Kaio-kenx3 and later x4 were near-suicidal maneuvers that overtaxed Goku's muscles so much that he could barely move afterwards. Even though Vegeta, in his rage failed to perceive that, when he transformed into an Oozaru, he literally crushed Goku. He shattered his bones and would of squeezed him to death, Attack on Titan style, were it not for Gohan and Kuririn's intervention. When they next encountered each other on Namek, while Vegeta was stunned by Goku's progress, Goku gave Vegeta a senzu. Initially, Goku had the edge because of his super-training and constant zenakais since their last meeting. But, when Vegeta ate that senzu he surpassed him completely. It instantly repaired years of scars and unhealed damage so much so that Vegeta went through a super-zenkai. Whilst before he could barely contend with Recoome, now he could hold back Freeza's 1st shell form. Goku only surpassed Vegeta after he went through his own super-zenkai during his meditative healing where he re-aligned his Ki with his body after the fight against Captain Ginyu. Although Goku would go on to become the LSSJ, Vegeta was in a solid position after Freeza's death.

Vegeta's training during the three years before the Artificial Humans arrival meant that when he became a SSJ, he had surpassed Goku. Vegeta got more battle experience during his beat down of No.19 and later from No.18 so that when Goku awakened from his sickness, he had a heads start. When Vegeta emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time, he was the most powerful man on Earth at the time. The gap between the two was significant. So how did Goku surpass Vegeta again? This is where their differences stand out. It is heavily implied that Trunks and Vegeta did not train together even though they shared the same space. They mostly did their own individual training. Considering their background we have a like Father, like son moment where they found a SSJ form that boosted strength and power and they failed to see anything beyond that. Contrast this with Goku. Goku first trained his son to reach his level so they could improve each other. Both would rise higher and faster as they had a partner to go up against. Secondly, when Goku found the Ascended SSJ form and the next form beyond that, he identified its strengths and weaknesses and immediately ruled it out. To surpass SSJ, something other than strength was needed. If the SSJ form was triggered due to intense hatred then what if you were calm as a SSJ and re-triggered? Goku identified that would be the way forward and Gohan's Ki boosts in times of hate would be the key. So that is what they did to the shock of everyone when they emerged. Their Ki was different. Calm. Normal. Trunks was very close in his guess that it would be a precursor to another transformation and Vegeta was spot on that they trained intensely so the SSJ form was normal for them. Despite both of them facing Perfect Cell and having an idea of what they were facing, they both preferred to train alone. Even with an extra year inside the room, they failed to bridge that gap because as they did not realise the significance of Goku's plan. After Goku's death, Vegeta resolved to never fight again.

While Vegeta was on Earth, Goku was in Heaven. Time passes differently there and Goku was in a place surrounded by countless spirits and fighters to learn new ideas and techniques from. An ideal place for someone who is humble and willing to learn from others to improve oneself. Is it any wonder then that the gap between them widened so dramatically during that seven year time skip? Vegeta may have trained even harder than Goku at that time but it would never be enough as he himself never found the SSJ2 transformation. In his desperation, Vegeta once again sought power and used Babidi's magic to awaken the hatred inside himself to trigger the SSJ2 transformation and raise his Ki further. All in a final chance to beat Goku during his brief stay on Earth. In the end, they were equal and Majin Boo's revival meant the fight was a draw. Goku not using SSJ3 is because it had a weakness of consuming his life ki, which at that time was the temporal energy of his 24 hour body. To deliberately shorten his remaining time on Earth and never see his friends and family again while there's another threat on the horizon such so he can win a fight against his friend and rival who is going through a mid-life crisis? Goku is not the type of person to do that.

Dragon Ball Multiverse continues Vegeta's growth after the end of Z. It becomes clear that in this story, Vegeta has won in all the ways that matter since Majin Boo. He has broken free from the shackles of his past where strength is all that matters. He is not a primitive barbarian like his alternate self from U10. He is not another version of Freeza like in U13. And He is not an unstable fighting obsessed space policemen like Vegetto from U16. He has found peace on Earth surrounded by friends and family. He has incredibly bridged the gap between himself and Goku by dedicating himself to improvement, reflection and a willingness to learn. They are equals now in more ways than one. They unlocked the final SSJ transformation and in a straight fight between the two it all came down to a few punches. They fought and he lost. Now he is content. It's beautiful really.

They are equals now

DBZFan92 was saying: Meh, figures they'd go the expected route

Re-reading this fight the choreography was so strange to me throughout sections of the fight. They were constantly in a different position than momentum and the hits should have carried them. Was a hell of a fight though, and certainly better than the other DBM fights of the past few years. Too bad the first half of the fight was soured by the fake out though, which was ultimately pointless since Goku is winning anyway

omai was saying: everybody talking bad cant come close to making a battle this entertaining. Dbm> everything but z ???

Maybe not artistically but I'm sure there's a decent amount of people on here who could think of much better choreography and a more satisfying ending

"Expected route" I really encourage you to rewatch/reread DBZ and keep track at how many times they fought and Goku came out the winner. Go ahead. I'll wait. Even in canon Vegeta beats him in training In the recent movie. If anything this is the most unexpected ending because of the misconception that's plagued the fandom and still does so. And Vegeta once again, ain't the MC. Goku finally beat him here In a fanfic at best right now.

FantomPhoenix was saying: UnifiedEntity was saying: DBZFan92 was saying: Meh, figures they'd go the expected route

Re-reading this fight the choreography was so strange to me throughout sections of the fight. They were constantly in a different position than momentum and the hits should have carried them. Was a hell of a fight though, and certainly better than the other DBM fights of the past few years. Too bad the first half of the fight was soured by the fake out though, which was ultimately pointless since Goku is winning anyway

omai was saying: everybody talking bad cant come close to making a battle this entertaining. Dbm> everything but z ???

Maybe not artistically but I'm sure there's a decent amount of people on here who could think of much better choreography and a more satisfying ending

"Expected route" I really encourage you to rewatch/reread DBZ and keep track at how many times they fought and Goku came out the winner. Go ahead. I'll wait. Even in canon Vegeta beats him in training In the recent movie. If anything this is the most unexpected ending because of the misconception that's plagued the fandom and still does so. And Vegeta once again, ain't the MC. Goku finally beat him here In a fanfic at best right now.

The issue is that Vegeta, despite never officially losing to Goku, is always lagging behind him so badly and has such a bad track record at being the Earth's last line of defence, that even Bulma in DB Super has zero faith in him and places it all into Goku.

So there's a reason for Vegeta fans wanting a win. Vegeta considered the Oozaru cheating, he cheap shotted Ssj2 Goku as Majin and Goku was holding back ssj3 the entire time meaning he didn't think Vegeta was even worth the effort, and in that movie a lot of people believe Goku let Vegeta win.

That's why Vegeta fans crave a zero BS Vegeta win over Goku. They've never gotten one and he's been in the number two/antagonist punching bag spot to make Goku look good for so many years that it would be a subversion of expectations to see Vegeta win.


What Vegeta fans want is a win against a major villain, since Vegeta has always been a punching bag for the main villain. Vegeta doesn't need a win against Goku, he already had 2 wins against Goku (imagine the ego boost Vegeta fans will get if Vegeta actually beats Goku fair and square XD).

Their first fight, Goku dominated Vegeta when they were both in humanoid form, but the Oozaru form earned Vegeta the win. It doesn't seem very fair to Goku, but still, that wasn't cheating. You use everything in your arsenal to defeat your enemy. That's a legit win for Vegeta.

Their second fight, even Vegeta himself didn't call it a win, because he cheated. He agreed to call off the fight, then cheap shot Goku. He said he would come back to finish the fight with Goku after he dealed with Buu, because his pride wouldn't allow him to call it a win. Even with that power boost from Babidi's magic, he was fighting just evenly with a Goku who was holding back. And then later he got mad at Goku for "disrespecting me by hiding your full power."

Their third fight (Broly's movie), it's a legit win for Vegeta, although it was just a sparring session, not a serious fight, and neither of them was fighting at full power.

So it Vegeta 2 - 0 Goku.
Vegeta doesn't need another win against Goku.

Vegeta with the smirk. He's taken Goku as far as he can go, it was right to the edge, and he's happy. He's finally happy.

When he fought his double from another universe, he said he'd acheived inner peace on Earth. Then he killed Kakarot and buried those demons. Now he's fought Goku and they went to the limit together, with his children cheering him on.

There's a lot of character development going on here if you're paying attention.

everybody talking bad cant come close to making a battle this entertaining. Dbm> everything but z ???

Joker was saying: I'm not sure the outcome will reflect this, but Vegeta can take more punishment than Goku can. The longer this goes on, the better Vegeta's odds should be.

Goku can take serious punishment too. Goku handled punishment from Frieza much better than Vegeta did for one.

Jow was saying: simified was saying: Good fight despite the odd nipple placement.
I didn't even notice.

I couldn't help but notice. They kept following me around, staring at me as I read the page. They stuck out more than the 3rd eye on Tien.

Time for the infamous "character just got hit but instead of falling backwards they find footing on one leg and land a devastating counterblow that unexpectedly wins them the match" moment.


Honestly though, I dont even mind. Both fighters deserve this win. Would love for Goku to lose for a change, but this was a spectacular battle.

No longer a fight over the earth or a one sided inferiority complex (that doesn't even make sense to begin with when again, you think about how their first battle went).

And it would be cliche as hell if the main character didn't win against his rival in a non life of death event in a tournament.

Sorry, but I HATE this page.

Yeah the art is great as usual but... This is Goku vs Vegeta. This battle should be MAKING the memorable choreography. This battle should be CREATING the new references other battles will easter egg about. But instead we get Star Wars this, MGS that... Imo this battle is NOT the place for random easter eggs.

And while the SW one at least was used for something that created some progress, this page is both just a cheap easter egg and an empty page with literally nothing else for it. No progress. No content. No meaning. Just an easter egg.

In Tenshinhan vs Sun Wukong? Whatever. In Goku vs Vegeta? Just... Ugh...

BangBang was saying: I don't get why people are complaining. This is great. A real fight of equal rivals. No tricks, no asspulls, nothing really at stake, just the two of them trying to come out on top. I understand how Pan felt in the previous page. The references are cool too.
Probably because it is coming out too slowly and there are not many panels a page. Should be 6-10 panels if its going to take this long.

DBZFan92 was saying: pofehof was saying: Because Vegeta fans have a selective memory about how the series progressed.

Yeah definitely not true that Vegeta "lost" to Goku each time, but perhaps some of the people who've claimed that count every time Vegeta got surpassed and his pride crushed by Goku (the entire series since Goku arrived on Namek) as a loss. We know their second fight was basically meaningless since Goku could have ended it very quickly if he wanted
That's some weird logic to count that as a loss ngl. ^^

Going by this logic, Vegeta's win in the quarter finals against Cell also doesn't count, because Cell held back and could've easily finished Vegeta if he wanted to. I actually doubt Vegeta would've beaten Cell as SSJ3, when Cell would've taken this seriously (let's not talk about Max Vegeta vs Cell, that's a different story). A loss is still a loss, no matter how you try to twist it with "but he could've done this and that and easily win".

So Goku holding back his SSJ3 and still getting knocked out, is his own damn fault imo. I still think, if they continued their fight as SSJ2, Vegeta would've also won again. Afterall he also had the Majin boost, which made him more resistent.

DrewSaga was saying: The second panel looks strangely gay lol.

Just like that Dragon Ball Z Budokai intro?

Because Vegeta fans have a selective memory about how the series progressed.

It's going to be a sad day when this ends...the battle between Goku and Vegeta I mean. Hahaha I see Dragon ball multiverse going on for another 20 years!

DBZFan92 was saying:

No one is cheating here.

No one said Goku "cheated". Seems you completely missed mx1mum's point

"Seems" you are being pedantic.

If we're going to be meticulous about it, this is not a new discussion.

Users on this forum have used the word "cheated" to describe Goku's training.

However, my overall point still applies.

Learning from someone else is not unfair, nor is it unique to Goku (if we include informal observations).

Especially when the student improves upon the teacher's lesson.

Which Goku did every single time. If we include the Buu Saga, Goku improved his own lesson.

Personal Theory:
People (especially western fans) seem to have the namek saga imprinted on their brains.

Their first memory of Dragon Ball was Goku beating up the Ginyu Force after training in space, recovering in the recovery chamber and turning Super Saiyan.

Therefore, their oldest DB memory involves Vegeta being the underdog and training to become a Super Saiyan to catch up to Goku.

Edit:
Mx1mum's "more rewarding if Vegeta wins" post applies here too.

mx1mum was saying: DarkClaw was saying: I'll honestly feel pretty shocked if Goku loses. I feel like it would go against the conclusion of the manga. I understand that Vegeta can still progress and develop - but it was pretty clear that he will never be as good as Goku - by his own admission.

Not gonna lie, as much as that was a great character moment for Vegeta, I never thought that his admission to Goku being better than him made much sense.

Goku has always been a great rival, but his advantage over Vegeta more times than not, was due to some sort of external help.

When they first met Vegeta was stronger and Goku had to resort to the Kaioken, a technique taught to him by King Kai, in order to match and eventually overpower him in one or two instances of the fight.

When they got to Namek, Goku was stronger simply because he got to train during his trip while Vegeta didn't.

After the Cell Saga, Goku was dead for 7 years and was allowed to train in the afterlife while Vegeta stayed among the living on earth (Training in the afterlife is confirmed to yield crazy advantages over training in the living world).

The only time Goku legitimately surpassed Vegeta was during the Cell Saga when Goku discovered the the FPSSJ transformation. Other than that, Goku has always had some sort of unfair advantage, so Vegeta insinuating that Goku has always been naturally better than him was always absurd to me.
DBZFan92 was saying: mx1mum was saying: DarkClaw was saying: I'll honestly feel pretty shocked if Goku loses. I feel like it would go against the conclusion of the manga. I understand that Vegeta can still progress and develop - but it was pretty clear that he will never be as good as Goku - by his own admission.

Not gonna lie, as much as that was a great character moment for Vegeta, I never thought that his admission to Goku being better than him made much sense.

Goku has always been a great rival, but his advantage over Vegeta more times than not, was due to some sort of external help.

When they first met Vegeta was stronger and Goku had to resort to the Kaioken, a technique taught to him by King Kai, in order to match and eventually overpower him in one or two instances of the fight.

When they got to Namek, Goku was stronger simply because he got to train during his trip while Vegeta didn't.

After the Cell Saga, Goku was dead for 7 years and was allowed to train in the afterlife while Vegeta stayed among the living on earth (Training in the afterlife is confirmed to yield crazy advantages over training in the living world).

The only time Goku legitimately surpassed Vegeta was during the Cell Saga when Goku discovered the the FPSSJ transformation. Other than that, Goku has always had some sort of unfair advantage, so Vegeta insinuating that Goku has always been naturally better than him was always absurd to me.

Don't forget Goku using the Senzu beans on the way to Namek, and getting a single zenki from 90k to a good deal above Vegeta's last zenki he obtained when >/= to Frieza's first form... cause reasons... (MC plot) haha. But yeah I have to agree to an extent. I kind of took it as Vegeta only admitting Goku was the best in that moment, which is still huge for his character and pride. And/or saying Goku is the best pure combatant. Not that Vegeta couldn't ever surpass him.

One could also argue that even against Cell, Goku only knew to do that because of external help (all of his training from masters). Who did Vegeta have to teach him once daddy died? The dumb brute Nappa, and Frieza? - Mr. "never been hurt besides my father" so never had to learn much true fighting skill and strategy. Now to be fair, in the manga Vegeta goes to the "cell games" and uses normal SSJ, so it's implied he tried taking Goku's route, yet was only able to surpass 50% of Goku's power. However, that's also arguably the same reasoning, Vegeta never had anyone to teach him to rest properly, or to reduce his pride a bit showing him how beneficial a training partner can be
I see where you're both coming from, but I have a different perspective. For me, narrative should always be the driving force of a story. Those "unfair advantages" you guys talk about aren't unfair at all - they are the consequences of Goku being a good person and nurturing his relationships with people. throughout the story of DB. Vegeta, by contrast, has largely lived a selfish and isolated life - and the consequences of that are that he is largely alone in his development. What you guys are saying is "if Vegeta was given the same opportunities, he would..." whereas in my view, it's a moot point - Vegeta would never have the opportunities Goku did because he didn't earn them and doesn't deserve them.

On the "Goku cheated by having trainers/teachers" comments.

1. Goku improved more when he applied his teachers' instructions independently.

Limited Examples:
1) Arguably surpassed Roshi (Jackie Chun) in the Tenshinhan saga. (Roshi told him to travel the world and train alone after the Baba Tournament.)

(Limited independent training leading to the Raditz Saga. Strongest earthling, weakest living Saiyan [tarble notwithstanding].)

(Weaker than Vegeta after training with King Kai).

2) Surpassed Vegeta (and arguably King Kai), gravity training while in space.

3) Surpassed SS2 Gohan and achieved SS3 while training alone in otherword. (The only thing we see King Kai do is provide additional weight to his arms and ankles.)

2. Vegeta learned to sense energy (from observation), gravity training (from example), and Mastered Super Saiyan (from example and observation).

3. Goku (single digit power level at birth) demonstrated greater exponential growth than Vegeta (power level in the thousands at birth).

No one is cheating here.

DarkClaw was saying: I'll honestly feel pretty shocked if Goku loses. I feel like it would go against the conclusion of the manga. I understand that Vegeta can still progress and develop - but it was pretty clear that he will never be as good as Goku - by his own admission.

Not gonna lie, as much as that was a great character moment for Vegeta, I never thought that his admission to Goku being better than him made much sense.

Goku has always been a great rival, but his advantage over Vegeta more times than not, was due to some sort of external help.

When they first met Vegeta was stronger and Goku had to resort to the Kaioken, a technique taught to him by King Kai, in order to match and eventually overpower him in one or two instances of the fight.

When they got to Namek, Goku was stronger simply because he got to train during his trip while Vegeta didn't.

After the Cell Saga, Goku was dead for 7 years and was allowed to train in the afterlife while Vegeta stayed among the living on earth (Training in the afterlife is confirmed to yield crazy advantages over training in the living world).

The only time Goku legitimately surpassed Vegeta was during the Cell Saga when Goku discovered the the FPSSJ transformation. Other than that, Goku has always had some sort of unfair advantage, so Vegeta insinuating that Goku has always been naturally better than him was always absurd to me.

iron leaf was saying: Your nickel was saying: Looks like Vegeta has a chance here. Hope he finally gets a win on Goku after all these yearsSaiyan-Arc: Vegeta wins -> 1
(Goku is essentially incapacitated and is literally saved by Gohan, Krillin & Yajirobi)

Boo-Arc: Vegeta wins -> 2
(Even though, Goku would have won de jure with the SSJ3, de facto he was unconscious on the ground and Vegeta was not)

DBM U18 Special: Vegeta wins -> 3
(Similar to the Boo arc, both fight only in the SSJ2, and again Goku does not use the SSJ3. In the end, Vegeta wins the honorable SSJ2 duel).


Perhaps it is due to the false memory syndrome of many people who believe Goku actually won each of their fights. However, it may also be because many just want to express with such statements how much they would like to see Vegeta win once in a fight against Goku, with both giving completely everything and not holding anything back and without any intervention from others.
(But then you should say it like that and not write confusing comments that make others think that Goku once won a fight against Vegeta.)
I mean you can make a case for the first one, but the latter two are only wins by technicality. The second case was a surprise attack, and Vegeta wasn't even considering that a win (since he said they'd continue their fight after he deals with Buu). In the third, Vegeta also doesn't really consider it a win and he's pissed at Goku for not going all out.

If my point wasn't clear though, Vegeta spends most of the series trying (often unsuccessfully) to play catch up with Goku. He admits as much when he became a Majin. Seeing him accomplish his goal of surpassing Goku for the first time in decades is a big moment for him.

I see that Vegeta fans only have problem with "ass-pull" when Goku does it, but it's A-okay for Vegeta. xD -_-

DjPuffyPants was saying: Ngl if I see Vegeta lose like every other hecking time, I will stop reading this for good.
He may lost a lot in the main series but Vegeta has not lost a single fight with Goku. Despite the difference in their power in all of the series Vegeta has won every single combat encounter with Goku, presumably up until now. Let's not freak out over a simple loss when it wasn't because he was being overly prideful and full of himself. Overall he has had a pretty good showing in this fan manga, even beating the tar out of an "evil" Goku.

DBZFan92 was saying: Meng_Shu was saying: What if Goku let's himself get seemingly devoured by the blast, but Vegeta knows that it was not case as Goku appears above him. It is revealed that Goku has learned to instant transmission without gestures. This last new trick is what gave Goku a slight edge over Vegeta. Vegeta and Goku look at each other as if they're ready to continue fighting but then Vegeta surrenders to his tiredness and passes out, giving Goku the win. Would that feel like a lesser ass pull?

Remember, Vegeta used instant transmission against Cell! It's not a dirty/magic trick! It's a legitimate technique that derives from raw power and relies on ki!

No offense but... new trick? Vegeta has known that Goku can do instant transmission without any gestures since Goku's battle with Cell.

Really? I apologize then.

What if Goku let's himself get seemingly devoured by the blast, but Vegeta knows that it was not case as Goku appears above him. It is revealed that Goku has learned to instant transmission without gestures. This last new trick is what gave Goku a slight edge over Vegeta. Vegeta and Goku look at each other as if they're ready to continue fighting but then Vegeta surrenders to his tiredness and passes out, giving Goku the win. Would that feel like a lesser ass pull?

Remember, Vegeta used instant transmission against Cell! It's not a dirty/magic trick! It's a legitimate technique that derives from raw power and relies on ki!

DBZFan92 was saying:

As far as I am aware, in DB lore itself Saiyans don't age much in adulthood until they hit a "wall" and rapidly become elderly. Goku's other world training itself could give him an advantage, his youth should have nothing to do with it until Vegeta hits that wall


Appreciate your response,

You're right too. In official DB lore, Saiyans don't age (or they remain in their prime) until "they turn 80". Although I thought there was a caveat from Toriyama about individual differences, but I digress.

In theory, if Super Saiyan transformations harm the users' bodies over time; then their age (or more specifically, their overall time as a Super Saiyan) could become relevant.

Although, no disrespect, but I don't think Salagir was intending to be that specific about Saiyan biology.

DBZFan92 was saying: RealNate was saying: Super Gojita 3 was saying:
Anyways, I'm choosing goku for my pick as to win due to his younger age. as he is younger, he should have more stamina as a result, and in the 1st round scuffle, goku got the better of vegeta, though thats not to say veggie can't pick up the W.

A tie, seemingly is possible if certain conditions are met, but I'm picking goku.

Obligatory disclaimers

"Salagir can interpret things in whatever way he wants to tell his story"

and

"Based on the power ceilings, Goku and Vegeta are equals capable of harming each other"

That said, I agree with you.

Goku should have more stamina based on his youth.

He also should have more stamina because he reached SS2 and SS3 in an otherworldly (non-mortal) body.

All together, Goku has 7 years not aging and improving Super Saiyan without DBM lore based side effects.

As far as I am aware, in DB lore itself Saiyans don't age much in adulthood until they hit a "wall" and rapidly become elderly. Goku's other world training itself could give him an advantage, his youth should have nothing to do with it until Vegeta hits that wall

Shadow-Ragna was saying: I can just imagine the sheer scale of Vegetto's rage since he missed unable to even gain this new power and form, since my guess Goku and Vegeta took note of Gohan's Ultimate Form and evolved on it with their own style.

On another note people may say Goku always wins against Vegeta...but did he really always win? I mean in the Saiyan Saga he actually lost and who won was Gohan in his Great Ape form, and there is the Buu Saga where Vegeta won by knockout. So really thats twice Goku and Vegeta fought in both times and Vegeta won one. Then its Super where they just spared and if you add in DBS Movie: Super Hero then Vegeta had his second win. So if Vegeta loses then it won't be that much of a stint, though it would be annoying that Goku won, but well we will see.

Also Vegeta got some cake there no wonder Bulma tends to like walking behind him sometimes.

Curious if Goku and Vegeta fused into Gogeta and used this form...would they be strong enough to face Vegetto and others?

I assume when people say that, it's more about Goku being more powerful for 90% of the time being capable of beating Vegeta, while each time Vegeta surpasses him (cyborgs, ROSAT, arguably Namek after Vegeta's Senzu until Goku gets out of the healing pod) it doesn't last long. That's part of what made the Perfect Cell chapters more entertaining to me because it wasn't just "Goku's the strongest and wins" again. To me it's like... how is it even a true rivalry if Goku is always more powerful? Why would he even care as much as he does? I mean I guess you could claim because Vegeta is the main one able to keep up and the second best technical fighter, but I just personally think it makes for a more entertaining story if the MC's rival is equal and/or more powerful than them for extended periods

I think a true rivalry is great for Goku and Vegeta actually.

But for a long time Vegeta's ego and arrogance was his barrier from being able to even be a proper rival to Goku. He had the natural ability the entire time (hence the moments when he was stronger than Goku) but not the character.

We usually see Vegeta at his best when he isn't blinded by his negative emotions (think all the times Vegeta roasted Frieza's men and #19) and then turn into a joke the moment he is (against Frieza, #18, Cell and even Buu at times like when Vegeta stubbornly refused to fuse with Goku against a behemoth that was way more powerful than Goku who was already a level above Vegeta). Goku doesn't share this weakness.

It would have been cool if we got to see Vegeta be a proper rival to Goku after the Buu Saga (DBGT ruined that, DBS ruined it too let's be honest, they made Goku into a total moron stripped of his abilities and competence as a martial arts master) but the Buu Saga was already the end of DBZ (the "Final Chapters") so it's not like Vegeta would suddenly be on par with Goku who already had SSJ3, he would need time to catch up, time he didn't have before the End-of-Z since Goku doesn't stop training even when it seems he is on top. But it is time he had between the Buu Saga and Dragon Ball Multiverse and now we see the results and needless to say, I am quite pleased to see Vegeta put up such a fight against Goku who once outclassed him.

Oh, to the point of your last sentence, it is usually interested if the MC can be challenged not only by their enemies but by their rivals to do better. I do wish Dragon Ball could have went deeper into that theme, maybe Vegeta should have been more on the same level as Goku (which is to say the gap shouldn't be so wide). Maybe Goku's rivalry with Krillin, Tien and Piccolo should have lasted longer before Vegeta left them in the dust. Especially since Goku vs Tien in the 22nd Tournament and Goku vs Piccolo in the 23rd Tournament was some of the best fights in all of Dragon Ball. But how would that work in Dragon Ball when the next big bad guy is way above the previous one in power? Like there is no comparison between Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Frieza in terms of threat level. Cell is way more powerful than Frieza, Buu is much more powerful than Cell. We also see characters often get thrashed by more powerful characters (Like Tien was the big guy during the 22nd Tournamnet but not long after, Tien got thrashed by King Piccolo, and the more powerful Piccolo Jr got thrashed by Vegeta's right hand man Nappa, and of course Vegeta got thrashed hard by Frieza)

Super Gojita 3 was saying:
Anyways, I'm choosing goku for my pick as to win due to his younger age. as he is younger, he should have more stamina as a result, and in the 1st round scuffle, goku got the better of vegeta, though thats not to say veggie can't pick up the W.

A tie, seemingly is possible if certain conditions are met, but I'm picking goku.

Obligatory disclaimers

"Salagir can interpret things in whatever way he wants to tell his story"

and

"Based on the power ceilings, Goku and Vegeta are equals capable of harming each other"

That said, I agree with you.

Goku should have more stamina based on his youth.

He also should have more stamina because he reached SS2 and SS3 in an otherworldly (non-mortal) body.

All together, Goku has 7 years not aging and improving Super Saiyan without DBM lore based side effects.

I can just imagine the sheer scale of Vegetto's rage since he missed unable to even gain this new power and form, since my guess Goku and Vegeta took note of Gohan's Ultimate Form and evolved on it with their own style.

On another note people may say Goku always wins against Vegeta...but did he really always win? I mean in the Saiyan Saga he actually lost and who won was Gohan in his Great Ape form, and there is the Buu Saga where Vegeta won by knockout. So really thats twice Goku and Vegeta fought in both times and Vegeta won one. Then its Super where they just spared and if you add in DBS Movie: Super Hero then Vegeta had his second win. So if Vegeta loses then it won't be that much of a stint, though it would be annoying that Goku won, but well we will see.

Also Vegeta got some cake there no wonder Bulma tends to like walking behind him sometimes.

Curious if Goku and Vegeta fused into Gogeta and used this form...would they be strong enough to face Vegetto and others?

Oh, sorry. I've lurked on these forums for years. I'm unsure exactly where the idea that you're npberryhill came from.

His growth in strength relative to Goku should only happen as a consequence of his growth as a person.

While I get where the Vegeta fans are coming from on the desire for a more compelling rivalry (@DBZFan92- your fic, Bringer of Death is excellent)

it doesn't actually make tons of sense for Vegeta to compare to Goku without taking a path similar to what he does in late Super.

All power scaling aside- the difference between the two characters is alluded to throughout the course of Canon DB. The argument made is that Vegeta is motivated entirely by Goku. This, he's a ceiling he could never surpass.

The thing is, there's philosophical and psychological validity to this in a conventional real world sense. Goku is motivated internally by a passion for what he does. In the real world, it'd make him less susceptible to burnout, more capable of conceiving of progress on his own terms (and thus more creative and experimental in his training methods), and give him a much more grounded understanding of his own strengths and weaknesses in a way that isn't clouded by his perception of something that isn't him. He's not confined by arbitrary ideations or strict rules about his own development.

Vegeta being the opposite isn't a noble distinction. It's a huge and very intentionally written character flaw. He doesn't normally manage to surpass Goku, because his concept of progress is frequently something that he's observed/believed Goku to have already done.

In a more carefully written story than DB, the difference would hold much more narrative weight with a character like Goku, Piccolo, or potentially even Tien (who is also guilty of this) definitively dressing Vegeta down for how his pride manifests itself in a way that actually impedes his growth as a person and a fighter. This would happen in a way that holds much more narrative weight than Whis eventually just telling Vegeta "Ultra Instinct ain't for you. Get your own life together, and paddle your own canoe."

But, Toriyama's writing around Vegeta post-Namek was always subpar. The characters all had to take backseats and collectively become dumber to accommodate Vegeta being present. Toriyama has also admitted to disliking Vegeta as a character, but also thinking of him as a handy tool (a crutch that constantly makes detrimental choices to the cast to keep the plot moving) to keep the plot moving. It's a real shame, too, because he's brilliant on Namek. MistaireFusion puts it best in his Dragonball Dissection series when he rants about his dislike for Vegeta as a character.

I'm well aware of why Vegeta was behind Goku for all of Z, it makes perfect sense. I don't deny that at all. The man's only motivation was always to surpass someone above him. First it was Frieza, but Frieza was always so far ahead of him and he never trained himself, so Vegeta probably never even saw the point.

Once Frieza was dead, Goku became Vegeta's new Frieza to strive towards. Only it was different now because he had seen Goku train to get to that level, so Vegeta started doing that as well. With Vegeta in the lead, he'd have no one to strive to surpass. Goku, like you said, has always been motivated by pushing himself, while Vegeta has more been motivated by where he stands in comparison to others due to wanting to be the strongest of the saiyan race and prove that he is worthy of his title as the prince of Saiyans.

However, the concept of Vegeta's inner motivations always holding him behind Goku is also a concept that has been a bit overdone at this point. One would think that after the end of the Buu saga, Vegeta would have the development necessary to realize what has been holding him back for so long.

Basically, my main point is that even though it makes sense as to why Vegeta was never in Goku's level, the desire to still see him rise to the same level as Goku and have their rivalry be an actually proper one doesn't just fade away because of that. If anything it just becomes stronger, because fans of Vegeta (Er, well myself anyways) want to see him be able to overcome this motivational and inner wall that has held him back for basically the entire series aside from what we're now seeing in late DB Super.

DBZFan92 was saying:
I'd say Vegeta does have higher potential, but he's still a hard working underdog because he didn't get to

1. Train and learn with Roshi
2. Have the importance of training with and learning from a master instilled in him at a young age, since he was raised by Frieza for 2/3 of his life until meeting Goku
3. Have anyone around his level willing to train with him anyway until going to Earth
4. Train with Kami
5. Drink the sacred water
6. Train and learn with King Kai, learning to easily multiply his power, and the spirit bomb
7. Get a high enough Zenkai after Krillin almost kills him, even though his base was higher than Goku's at the time before Goku's healing pod zenkai, while Goku gets a much higher zenkai from the healing pod because reasons
8. Realize the importance of using Trunks as a training partner, the way Goku did with Gohan, because of the messed up way he was raised
9. Learn instant transmission
9. Be dead and training in the other world, with all its advantages, for 7 years

I, nor any "Goku should win" defenders, have not denied that Goku had experiential advantages.

We (or I) said to grant Vegeta the type of win the "Vegeta 'finally' needs a win" defenders want, would contradict the preceding events in the story.

Including, but not limited to:
1. Goku's experience,
2. drive to train/improve,
3. and his head start

That being said, a lot of the "advantages" you listed are greatly exaggerated relative to the Goku vs. Vegeta fight.

Everything in Dragon Ball (pre-Z) is irrelevant to even Raditz (let alone Vegeta).

Even the King Kai training just allowed him to compete with Vegeta (and admittedly hurt his pride).

The most over the top advantages are being dead for 7 years, Yardrat, and knowing how to train (Cell Saga).

....

That said,

You are probably the first "Vegeta should win" person to acknowledge his birth potential. I appreciate that.

rapidge was saying:
It wasn't until recently I realized that Goku never actually beat Vegeta...this was a big deal.


He kinda did.

He was superior to Vegeta on Namek. Even went Supersaiyan. Could have defeated Vegeta there any Moment he wanted.

He was superior to Vegeta on the Cell Games. Could have defeated Vegeta there any Moment he wanted.

When he was knocked out by Majin Vegeta in the early Buu Saga - Goku thought they wouldn't "fight" anymore. So i can hardly count that as a genuine Loss. Also Goku could have went Supersaiyan Three and would have been superior once again.

He k~iiinnnda lost that one Time in the hyperbolic Liontamer, shortly before Vegeta angered Gohan enough so that Gohan threatened to murder Vegeta. (lol) This is already DBM-Fictiom, right ?
In the Hyperbolic Liontamer back there, Goku could have ALSO went Supersaiyan Three and would have defeated Vegeta quickly there.


And now ... ... ... this.

Seriously we will NEVER see Vegeta clearly beat Goku FOREVER - when both are pretty much equal AND are using the same State, Level, etc.



Maybe that is an "okay thing/Rule" of the Dragon Ball Universe - but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

Fight ruled, shame the outcome was revealed before we actually saw it, I get what they were going for though for us to experience that fight the same way everyone else did which is just blink of an eye it was over and done with but I feel like if you cut that part out and we watched this fight play out it would have been even better not knowing who would ultimatley come out on top as the tide of battle tilted back and forth.

(Timeline correction edit)

PrinceOfTheHood was saying: rapidge was saying:
It wasn't until recently I realized that Goku never actually beat Vegeta...this was a big deal.


He kinda did.

He was superior to Vegeta on Namek. Even went Supersaiyan. Could have defeated Vegeta there any Moment he wanted.

He was superior to Vegeta on the Cell Games. Could have defeated Vegeta there any Moment he wanted.

When he was knocked out by Majin Vegeta in the early Buu Saga - Goku thought they wouldn't "fight" anymore. So i can hardly count that as a genuine Loss. Also Goku could have went Supersaiyan Three and would have been superior once again.

He k~iiinnnda lost that one Time in the hyperbolic Liontamer, shortly before Vegeta angered Gohan enough so that Gohan threatened to murder Vegeta. (lol) This is already DBM-Fictiom, right ?
In the Hyperbolic Liontamer back there, Goku could have ALSO went Supersaiyan Three and would have defeated Vegeta quickly there.


And now ... ... ... this.

Seriously we will NEVER see Vegeta clearly beat Goku FOREVER - when both are pretty much equal AND are using the same State, Level, etc.

Maybe that is an "okay thing/Rule" of the Dragon Ball Universe - but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

As I stated before, for a lot of Vegeta fans it's not enough for Vegeta to beat Goku casually and be a comparable rival.

For them, Vegeta needs to somehow become superior to Goku and destroy him in a fight.

Without taking Goku's protagonist status into consideration, 10 years post-EoZ (20 post Buu saga) Vegeta surpassing and destroying 10 years post-EoZ (20 post Buu saga) Goku does not make sense unless Goku stops training.

Unfortunately for Veggie, they are BOTH training regularly.

On top of that:

1. (thanks to the Buu saga) Goku starts off with an advantage.

2. Goku is training a Buu-leveled human for a decade.

3. Goku is younger (both naturally and artificially due to being dead for 7 years).

Vegeta can only catch up because of Salagir's power ceilings (and his exclusion of Super and GT).

Unless we want to argue that Vegeta's higher class...

(ie: the fact that Vegeta was born with a higher power level without training; as referenced in the Saiyan Saga and Broly movies)

...gives him a biological advantage on top of his intense training.

Although I've seen Vegeta fans react negatively to that olive branch. As it hurts the "Vegeta's a hardworking underdog" narrative.

All of this is something Dragon Ball, and Toriyama in-general, does constantly.

They're not trying to kill each other...so I would assume that it wouldn't end with a beam struggle.

There's still a lot of flying and ki blasts though.

Takes time to do a powerful attack. This chapter had to be faster than 1\100 to 1\1000th of a second. Thats what the first pages emphasized the sheer speed of the fight and ensuing pages that followed. If that page of two parts at the start. Everybody wouldn't get how quick the fight actually was. We wouldn't get Vegito's expression too and wouldn't make sense if he did. Had we not gotten the sequence of the fight in a page transition. Which would leave a gaping hole in the story. The writer's were smart to do every page deliberately. I don't think more powerful attacks were used because of the first conversation Goku and Vegeta had. They knew it was going to be a brawl in these forms. I've never seen an instant kamehameha before people had hoped for. Mistaken for instant transmission kamehameha. Which isn't an instant attack like the ki blasts. That's mostly what I picked up by people being disappointed in ki blasts. It's actually more practical. The more powerful attacks take time. In that 1ms or so. Was either fighter just going to let the other have more time after concentrating before the fight. 0 chance.

DBZFan92 was saying: Dr. Alan Grant ver.2 was saying: I managed to procrastinate long enough to reread the fight :D

I kind of see what they were going for, a sort of very fast paced brawl that's basically a race to the point of total bodily defeat. I still stand by my points though, think it would've been nice to have more actual moments of significance in getting there as opposed to it being just a blur of largely interchangeable attacks of little individual relevance. The only two actual definable "moments" I'd say would be the pinballing and the final blow.

I'd say Vegeta's huge punch that was a call back to their first fight was a significant moment, but beyond that, I agree. I was hoping for some signature techniques used besides IT. Vegeta knows it too now but didn't even use it, which I think was kind of ridiculous. Yeah Goku would have more battle experience with it, but for Vegeta to not even try? Meh. Like I said last page, the fight was just a pure melee again like Goku vs Uub. It was an intense and gorgeous fight, but in my opinion just seemed a little uncreative which is like the opposite of Goku and Vegeta as fighters and tacticians. And obviously combined with implication that Goku wins right at the start, really hoping it's not over.

Dicax was saying: I'd maybe change is to reverse the roles on the pinball attack on 2183. It would've made a nice contrast with the more focused, I want to win not just ragdoll my opponent (read: show off), attack on 2187. It also would've made the fight a little more balanced as Goku had the upper hand for most pages.

Agreed (with this part)

I think the best way to fight even in DBZ world might just be to throw punches and kicks as quickly as possible. Ki energy blasts cost energy, especially blasts powerful enough to hurt people with the same level of power as Goku and Vegeta. Think of this, Mr. Satan and even a regular person cannot shoot ki blasts but they can throw punches and kicks and trained human fighters can already do it well, but here we got two Mystic/Ultimate level Saiyans here which would explain why the fight was so fast, that not only are they have very high power levels but are extremely efficient on top of it. In fact, I am inclined to say that Vegeta may have lost this fight (if it's really over) because he spent too much energy shooting ki blasts (and a small power gap in Goku's favor too most likely).

Energy blasts work extremely well under circumstances (like charged attacks that take time to charge and you can surprise the enemy with it, or if your opponent is someone like Buu, Cell or even Piccolo whom can regenerate, especially Buu, punches and kicks won't help you there, even U18 Gohan couldn't kill U11 Buu by doing that despite the enormous power difference).

I managed to procrastinate long enough to reread the fight :D

I kind of see what they were going for, a sort of very fast paced brawl that's basically a race to the point of total bodily defeat. I still stand by my points though, think it would've been nice to have more actual moments of significance in getting there as opposed to it being just a blur of largely interchangeable attacks of little individual relevance. The only two actual definable "moments" I'd say would be the pinballing and the final blow.

I'd maybe change is to reverse the roles on the pinball attack on 2183. It would've made a nice contrast with the more focused, I want to win not just ragdoll my opponent (read: show off), attack on 2187. It also would've made the fight a little more balanced as Goku had the upper hand for most pages.

I don't see any reason why Goku would be so much stronger than Vegeta.
Honestly I expected a fight much more clever with techniques (hopefully new) but in the end it was just "GOku's is stronger because of plot" and the only technique that we saw was the Instant Transmission which only Goku used for some reason although Vegeta knows that too.

In summary - disappointing.

and there we go, back to the present. i'm going to repeat my guess from the moment we saw goku knock vegeta down, i think vegeta's disadvantage is one of or a combination of both these factors: he learned ss3 much later than goku, giving him less time to learn the intricacies of mastering the super saiyan transformation to this degree, compounded with the fact that goku got a 7 year afterlife body training advantage where sleep, food and rest were never required. Secondly, Vegeta's body is quite older thank goku's thanks to their already existing age gap, the 7 year gap where goku didn't age due to being dead, and the fact that vegeta used the room of spirit and time much more than goku did. overall, U18 Vegeta is at least 2 or 3 years older than the other non-RoSaT-using Vegetas, and by proxy ~10 years older than goku. since DBM happens 10 years after EoZ, vegeta must be approaching his 70s or 80s by now. the age disadvantage was highlighted with Goku vs Freeza quite significantly, and may end up being the reason vegeta ends up losing... that is of course if we assume that both fighters are on equal terms with battle power and fighting skill, physical age is the only thing that gives goku an advantage over vegeta.

as for the naming discussion... why would you call it "mystic" when "mystic" was never an official term for gohan's form? it's ultimate gohan, potential unleashed, blah blah blah.
i've been saying we should call it super saiyan 0 for a while now, i even suggested "super saiyan grade 5" but threw that idea away cause this form is clearly implied to be utilizing the FULL potential of a saiyan's power, i.e. SS3 without any energy leakage. idk why "mystic" should even be considered when this is clearly super saiyan utilized in a manner similar to what elder kai magic'd gohan into doing. I thought the fandom would have dropped this term by now since its origins have never been more than fan-made.

Out of all of this. Couldn’t they have given Vegeta at least one page like this where he had Goku on the ropes? Even for just a split moment? Every major moment of this fight has basically belonged to Goku. Techniques all basically went to Goku. I get it that maybe there is going to be more of this fight after time catches up. But I see a lot of people saying how even this has been but I haven’t seen one page where vegeta really took the edge. He had landed a blow or two but repeatedly, Goku has had these moments where he is destroying Vegeta it seems.
I’m not even trying to be biased as a Vegeta fan but this was straight Goku wank service. I sure hope there is more after that “final” blow.
Just my thoughts. Disappointed in how they have done this fight. The art however has been immaculate! Big Thanks to Asura for what you do.

RealNate was saying: Northeal was saying: Uzurper was saying: Out of curiosity, what are your three most favorite matches in the tournament you've seen thus far? My list.
3. Cell vs. Tapion
2. Son Bra vs. Ginyu
1. Goku vs. Uub

5. Bardock vs King Cold
4. Vegeta vs Dr. Raichi
3. Cell vs Dabra
2. Uub vs Buu
1. Cell vs Tapion

No particular order:

Vegeta vs Raichi
Gast vs Raichi
Cell vs Dabura
Cell vs Bojack
Old man Goku vs Frieza

There are no fights that I explicitly dislike. However, I am critical of a few.

Cell vs. Vegeta

The art isn't the glaring issue for me. I have more problems with SS3 Vegeta not rapidly disintegrating Cell.

I don't agree that simply destroying the nucleus would be enough if Cell's body was intact.

My Proposal:
Vegeta could have baited Cell into a repeat "final flash" stand off. With a surprise SS3 transformation to overwhelm him. Afterwards, destroy the nucleus.

Goku vs. Uub

I guess we're seeing the hidden ability now. I still think Goku should have demonstrated something new (or something proficient) in the fight.

Zen Buu vs Xxi:

I think it should have been a "magic fight".

They could've been evenly matched.

Xxi would eventually "rage quit" by sealing Buu.

You’re actually wrong. Two different punches and two different perspectives. The left panel where goku gets punched shows more of the thumb side of the fist making it appear larger. The right panel with vegeta being punched is the opposite making the fist appear smaller. Also the shading makes the fist seem smaller, the image with more white seems more prominent to the eye. Not only that, but vegetas face looks considerably larger due to his hairline. Please put your fist on your face and you will see.

Did he just throw Vegeta through a ki blast that Vegeta had thrown earlier?

DBZFan92 was saying: Darius was saying: DBZFan92 was saying: Dislpay name was saying: i find it funny that we all unanimously agree that the reason why almost nobody could keep track of the fight was because Goku and Vegeta said that they don't leak energy anymore, eventhough that hasn't been confirmed XD

No we most certainly do not. Vegeta couldn't sense Goku in their first battle. Frieza and the Ginyus couldn't sense anyone. No one could sense the androids. Yet it hardly ever was a point of emphasis when it comes to keeping track of your opponent or watching others fight, certainly never enough to make power irrelevant.

Technically not true. A point of emphasis was made in the freeza vs goku fight. Without being able to sense freeza was subjected to surprise attacks. Then later in the fight it was at least in the anime if I remember correctly that the direct advantage was completely thrown in freeza face. Freeza noted goku could have just left since he lost track of him in the lava. Goku like a boss stated he didn't need to and then proceeded hand him his ass.

So... like I said, rarely a point of emphasis. I didn't say "never" a point of emphasis. It still didn't make their respective powers irrelevant. When Frieza lost track of Goku was before the former was at 50% wasn't it? Frieza would have killed him regardless if it wasn't for Super Saiyan bringing Goku far above Frieza. Frieza would have also killed him if it wasn't for Piccolo distracting while Goku collected for the spirit bomb. Yes it helped Goku some, but didn't turn the tide of the battle in any significant way. The main point is, Frieza had no problem tracking Goku unless Goku was obscured from Frieza's vision, because Frieza was more powerful.

lets also not forget 19 and 20.

could not be tracked via ki, and were basically fodder to ssj vegeta.

hell, piccolo made short work of 20 because, like you said, he was vastly stronger.

ki tracking was a point of contention when gero fled, and they couldn't find him, but in a straight up fight, he was like a baby before a gorilla.

or...like baby against ssj4 goku.

I would say your points are correct, and the way you worded it was also easy to digest. I understood what you meant.

DBZFan92 was saying: Dislpay name was saying: i find it funny that we all unanimously agree that the reason why almost nobody could keep track of the fight was because Goku and Vegeta said that they don't leak energy anymore, eventhough that hasn't been confirmed XD

No we most certainly do not. Vegeta couldn't sense Goku in their first battle. Frieza and the Ginyus couldn't sense anyone. No one could sense the androids. Yet it hardly ever was a point of emphasis when it comes to keeping track of your opponent or watching others fight, certainly never enough to make power irrelevant.

Technically not true. A point of emphasis was made in the freeza vs goku fight. Without being able to sense freeza was subjected to surprise attacks. Then later in the fight it was at least in the anime if I remember correctly that the direct advantage was completely thrown in freeza face. Freeza noted goku could have just left since he lost track of him in the lava. Goku like a boss stated he didn't need to and then proceeded hand him his ass.

i find it funny that we all unanimously agree that the reason why almost nobody could keep track of the fight was because Goku and Vegeta said that they don't leak energy anymore, eventhough that hasn't been confirmed XD

I mean...outside of that one Cell quote a bunch of people said, TFS never really poked fun at how much he does it.

It's a pretty "iconic" part of his moveset that he just likes to spam Ki Blasts, it worked the first time he did it and never worked after that.

It didn't really start becoming a meme until like...last year.

It only became a meme because of Lonely's Archives.

Nice callback:



Now, you all know why Vegeta "repositioned himself".

I see that, though to be a bit more charitable, Goku was still moving away from Vegeta's burst, and Vegeta's headbutt WOULD have slowed down his own momentum so he's back to playing catch-up.
Plus, Goku is currently falling DOWN to the ground, though I can't imagine gravity actually being a factor in their speed. If for any reason Goku ever started moving as slow as 9 m/s/s, at least that part of the fight would have been seen by most of the commentators.

Ok...let me rephrase my stance a bit, unless the fighters aren't expecting it...how fast the characters are fighting doesn't matter. That's basically what you described with Goku vs the Ginyu force and Final Form Freeza. Toriyama never once cuts back to the characters saying they can't keep up with the action once Goku starts fighting Freeza because at that point Freeza's overwhelming power and speed only matters as a threat to Goku and no one else.

What's happening in this fight isn't non-stop action, but apparently is fast enough to not even cause those Sonic Boom effects the anime uses for quick fights...I don't expect this to really show that because, of course, how could they?

But it's really stretching here with what's actually being shown happened during the fight.

I don't think he's moving back I think the bottom of the arc is supposed to be behind the top of the arc so he is moving forward to catch up. Though I could be wrong if he does some blast in the next page.

Agreed, this makes no sense.

The fact that fights were too fast for people to see anything hasn't been a thing since Gohan learned how to sense ki, it was funny once and it served a purpose in another instance, but it would've been redundant to keep drawing attention to it.

No fight in Dragon Ball is this fast, otherwise it'd be impossible for fights like the one against Nappa & Vegeta to last until the sun sets (even with the 3 hour break)...

riceblade was saying: im a little confused. are they stronger than SS2 tier now? since they didnt bother to transform into super saiyans. was wondering which form this is.

This is basically the Mystic state (though a minor difference being that Goku and Vegeta had to concentrate a bit to power up to this form. So basically SSJ3+.

Where do you see their clothes getting torn on this page?

It seems like that U18 Goku's reflexes are faster than U18 Vegeta's reflexes.

Dr. Alan Grant ver.2 was saying: it's impossible for anything to travel faster than light and that it's impossible for anything with mass to travel at light speed.Quantum particles have mass and they also can and do travel faster than light.

DBZFan92 was saying: Bring up the theory of relativity as much as you want too, but it's still just a theory.While the theory of relativity has inspired/helped several scientists in making several scientific discoveries, the theory of relativity contradicts quantum physics theories.

DBZFan92 was saying: they thought it was truly impossible.Because on real life an ordinary human would not survive traveling at faster than light speed on a spaceship that uses quantum particles as fuel/energy/method of propulsion unless the ship had the technology required to protect the ordinary humans inside from getting hurt by that. Well that and no real life scientist has yet made a spaceship that uses quantum particles as fuel/energy/method of propulsion, because they have not yet invented a maleable material that is durable enough to resist traveling at faster than light speed without getting destroyed in the process.

Good, cuz that's not even close to what I said. I'm just pointing out that you're using the word wrong. The word "theory" when used in regards to study has NOTHING to do with how certain we are about it.

Yeah no, this argument here NEVER ever works or applies. Ki is its own thing sure but everything else in universe follows standard laws of physics. There is nothing to indicate the speed of light is different then the speed of light in the DB universe. Come back with examples of something provable.

DBZFan92 was saying: Dr. Alan Grant ver.2 was saying: DBZFan92 was saying: Bring up the theory of relativity as much as you want too, but it's still just a theory. No human has traveled at or can fully understand traveling at light speed, because we haven't been able to.

You're using the word "theory" in the colloquial sense, roughly synonymous with "hypothesis." Scientific theories like the theories of gravity and evolution refers to a system of ideas and collection of evidence for something we KNOW HAPPENS. Gravitational Theory is an explanation of gravity, we KNOW there's gravity that's not a guess. Evolutionary theory is an explanation of evolution, we KNOW there's evolution, the theory is just our explanation of how it happens (ie, an examination of selective pressures on mutations). The theory of relativity is the same. We KNOW there's relativity just like we know there's gravity and evolution, that is as true as anything we can determine to be true in this world. The theory is the body of evidence and explanations on how it works.

DBZFan92 was saying: Bring up the theory of relativity as much as you want too, but it's still just a theory. No human has traveled at or can fully understand traveling at light speed, because we haven't been able to.
I don't have a stake in this argument but I'm going to call you out here. You're assuming we understand a lot less than we actually do. The more you examine physics the more it becomes pretty apparent that it's impossible for anything to travel faster than light and that it's impossible for anything with mass to travel at light speed.

Michelrpg was saying:

No, they are not at light speed at the end of the series. Not by a long shot. If they were, then Goku's instant transmission wouldnt make much sense since it literally would mean that EVERYONE at that point moved at that. Regarding your examples:


I mean.. Instant transmission doesnt move at the speed of light. Its instant. thats the name of the move. so even if everyone was moving faster then light since.. I dunno, super saiyan or something, Instant transmission would still be useful, since it would be even faster then that.

Sides, Imma just have to disagree in general here. Nothing we see in Dragonball ever indicated the speed of light works the same as in our world. I mean, goku was moving faster then solar flare's even as far back as his first fight with Tien, and stuff like after image implying that despite themselves, characters continue learning to 'see' faster, somehow, over and over again. even showing up as late as Cell and Early buu saga. like, Ki seemingly enhances senses beyond what is scientifically feasible. It cant all just be reacting to light-based stimuli faster as you get stronger, because that seems like such a slim margin for stuff like what burter did, where he moved so much faster then vegeta that vegeta seemed to be moving at a crawl, only for goku to be moving so fast, creating an after image so perfectly, that burter was unable to see goku at all other then the after image. Like, At some point you just have to accept that dragon ball doesnt follow science, so you cant apply scientific principles to it to determine scaling.

Mind you, DBM might work on different logic then Dragon ball proper, so Im not saying your nessicarily wrong, either, but I cant really Sympathize with people who assume everything in Dragon ball has got to be slower then light because of some random observations.


DBZFan92 was saying:

Light speed is light speed. It's not instantaneous. Goku's instant transmission is. Light can't travel from earth to king kai's/the other-world in an instant. So yes, it would still make plenty of sense.

ahhhh you pre-empted me there. Lol. I think I like your arguments too. but its funny, Stuff like what your saying is stuff I was saying years ago in other pages of this comic.. I guess some of the debates havent changed in literal decades.

Yurazah was saying: yo almost as fast, what..? are you one of those people who read all of db where we blatantly see the characters move at light speed for several arcs and still thinks they're not light speed by the end of the series? sone of my favorite examples: raditz dodging piccolos special beam, then later piccolo shoots a slower attack that blows up the moon in seconds, easily proving raditz was light speed. or the pannel where gotenks curcles the planet several times in an instant also calculating above light speed easily, (I think he was even in base)


No, they are not at light speed at the end of the series. Not by a long shot. If they were, then Goku's instant transmission wouldnt make much sense since it literally would mean that EVERYONE at that point moved at that. Regarding your examples:

— Radditz dodged a beam... and? Its just an energy blast. Piccolo just exaggerated his statement of Radditz' movement speed, which is understandable as to him it probably seemed that way (also if Radditz could move at the speed of light then everyone in freeza's army stronger than Radditz would be able to do that... he'd conquer planets so fast the inhabitants wouldnt even know they were taken over).
— Piccolo blowing up the moon, yeah, that happens. And that attack, as well as Roshi's attack in DB, happened when Toriyama didn't care about actual physics regarding lightspeed and such. To counter this: Vegeta's famous "final flash" vs Cell is seen blasting a significant chunk of the planet and being the size of what has to be several miles in arc. Did it damage the planet? Nope, Trunks states Vegeta "aimed it upwards".. which is absurd when you look at the shot itself. The tl;dr of those moments is simply that they looked cool, and physics be damned for the rule of cool.
— Regarding Gotenks and his lightspeed, this is a tricky one because the anime differs largely from the manga: in the anime he circles the earth 9 times, in the manga he mentions "a few dozen times". I'm not about to do the math on this one, but there is a thread on Kanzenshuu where someone did it (google "kanzenshuu gotenks circles earth"). The math concludes that Gotenks travels at 0.2x the speed of light, assuming it took him 1 second to complete one lap around the world. While impressive, thats STILL far from the actual speed you believe everyone should have at the end of Z. Simply put, they do not.


DBZFan92 was saying: The speed of ki blasts has always scaled with the power of the one using them. Piccolo shot a FTL ki blast before even fighting Nappa.

He did not. Piccolo just says that because he was amazed by Radditz's speed. It was a massive exaggeration on Piccolo's part.


With that all out of the way.... Im running out of chef's kisses for this artwork man

I'd argue that in it of itself is an inconsistency though. Like taking the DBZ rules logically characters who don't leak ki should be harder to track. And in any case I think it's less consistent than you suggest since during the Frieza fight for example the point that he couldn't sense energy was definitely made relevant with Krillin and Goku being able to get the better of him a few times because of it. At the very least it seems energy sensing has to be somewhat more efficient than eyesight else why would characters even develop the ability. Though you could argue that maybe its only benefit is for longer range (i.e. detecting people far away) before the fight actually starts, after which its irrelevant. Even if you're right which you might be I still think the show communicated it poorly and remains an example of rather thoughtless writing.

Jubjub was saying: While I see the "no aura leaking = no way to track" argument picking up steam, it still seems a bit unlikely. Both FPSSJ and Mystic Gohan had trackable ki signatures and this has been compared to both by the actual creator of the webcomic.

I think the reality is that they're just very fast and that took most people off guard. As I mentioned before, the "cool 1HKO" thing was cool for the moment but leaves more questions than anything. Androids and Cyborgs don't have ki yet they weren't speedblitzing their opponents. Mystic Gohan was infinitely stronger than Piccolo during the Buu saga but still could be tracked. Freeza can't even sense ki yet he made everyone outside of SSJ Goku & Trunks look like a joke.
While I don't necessarily agree one way or another on whether or not they're just very fast or if they actually leak less energy and are thus harder to track, I'd argue the place you're coming from is a bit wrongheaded. Don't fault DBM for trying to bring some consistency to a series that has none. Seriously DBZ is so full of plotholes and contradictory mechanics that work only at the author's convenience that it's definitely the wrong move to treat the canon that seriously. If you go onto forums and the like you'll see people wasting their lives with all sorts of schizo theories trying to tie everything together and unify all the inconsistencies under a framework that makes sense. It's a big fat waste of time is what it is, because there is no such framework because the author didn't think two cents about what he was writing down or if it tied together. Better to do what DBM is doing and recognize that it doesn't make sense not because we're morons who can't understand the genius of this religious text, but because it's badly written, and thus take steps to repair the damages and make things more consistent.

misi was saying: SSJ4 - as you know it from GT is not a thing here..
It literally is SSJ4 though. It's a sayian transformation, the fourth one to be exact. The saving of all that energy likely gives an incredibly significant power boost beyond SSJ3, and a lot like GT's SSJ4 it switches up the previous trends in transformations. But it's mostly the first thing. So yeah, they're in SSJ4 right now.

While I see the "no aura leaking = no way to track" argument picking up steam, it still seems a bit unlikely. Both FPSSJ and Mystic Gohan had trackable ki signatures and this has been compared to both by the actual creator of the webcomic.

I think the reality is that they're just very fast and that took most people off guard. As I mentioned before, the "cool 1HKO" thing was cool for the moment but leaves more questions than anything. Androids and Cyborgs don't have ki yet they weren't speedblitzing their opponents. Mystic Gohan was infinitely stronger than Piccolo during the Buu saga but still could be tracked. Freeza can't even sense ki yet he made everyone outside of SSJ Goku & Trunks look like a joke.