If only we had more panels of South Kai for me to use.
Oh well. This will have to do

Seems embedding images is broken for me for some reason. It hasn't worked for a few days now, even though the images are appearing on my end.

Here's a link to it in the forums instead: https://d...getas-new-power

Since not much has been happening these past few pages, and people are talking about how powerful characters are, I would like to introduce my own theory about what kind of power Vegeta has been hiding and will allow him to surpass Goku, so I can ask what you all think of it;

It's been hinted at many times that Vegeta is hiding something which he believes will allow him to defeat Goku, even with Super Saiyan 3.
It can't be Super Saiyan 3 itself, as Vegeta dismissed the form as much too flawed. Instead, he has expressed interest in Gohan's ultimate state, and attempting to attain something like it on his own.

DBM is no stranger to taking things from non-canon sources. The movie villains being and original content both being the most obvious cases of this.
One could argue that they took Golden Oozaru from GT, although there were a few gag panels to argue against this notion.

In order to introduce my theory, I would like to elaborate on a concept that has appeared many times over the franchise, but was never given much focus: *Transformation Channeling.*

The oldest instance of this I could find can be dismissed by some as merely an artistic choice, but there are those who see it as an implication of a transformation's power being used without transforming; the Oozaru appearing behind Goku as he defeats King Piccolo



Following that, there are many people who believe Grade 4 SSJ is stronger than Grade 1, thanks to multiple anime guides and such using similar wording about Grade 3 and Grade 4 pushing Super Saiyan to its limits, as well as referring to it as something beyond normal Super Saiyan. This causes many fans to believe Grade 4 is as strong as Grade 3, if not stronger.



This concept seemingly showed up again in GT, and was retroactively used to justify an animation error during filler in Z. Supposedly, Goku has the ability to use the power of Super Saiyan without actually transforming into a Super Saiyan. This is referred to as Super Saiyan Power. The wiki page even claims it has appeared in the manga version of Super, though I personally don't buy it.



Speaking of Super, it has also used this concept!

In the anime version, Goku is stated to have absorbed Super Saiyan God, and is apparently able to use the form's power without transforming into it.



In the manga, Trunks has been able to somehow push Super Saiyan 2 to have a power boost similar to Super Saiyan 3. Maybe even higher, since Goku felt the need to transform further against it.



(Note: An alternative translation for Trunks' line in the second page is *"I see.... Who knew that kind of transformation existed… But… It's not like I was completely satisfied with this form either…"*)

And if you're looking for an instance of Channeling which appears in both the manga and anime versions of Super, look no further than Broly's ability to use the Oozaru's power without actually transforming into a great ape!



There is actually one more instance of channeling that we've seen, but I have neglected to mention so far. Possibly the best and most perfect use of the ability, not only able to use the power of Super Saiyan, but also SSJ2 and SSJ3, all without transforming at all. In fact, it is so far above normal usage of channeling, that it does even more than that!



Gohan's Ultimate form!
Not only does it allow him to use all the power of Super Saiyan 3 without transforming, but also any power he would get from rage boosts without actually getting angry, and all of the power he would ever get from training... without training. It is the concept of channeling taken to its very pinnacle thanks to godly magic.

This means that even if Vegeta were to master channeling to the point where using Super Saiyan 3 levels of power in base, it would still only be a third of what Elder Kaioshin's ritual can do. So the Ultimate form doesn't lose it's uniqueness or how special it is to have come from the gods.

So, what is Vegeta's power? My theory (which I really haven't put much thought into, other than finding those images) is that he can channel the power of the Graded SSJ forms without turning into them.

Now, which order will he do it in? Will he channel Grade 2's power into normal SSJ, then stack SSJ2 on top of that? Or go SSJ2 and then channel that form's equivalent of Grade 2?

The order doesn't matter much, since the result will be the same, so you're free to stack them in any way you'd like.

Salagir's multiplier for SSJ2 is x10.
If we assume that Grade 3 has the same multiplier, but only for attack power, then we can probably assume that Grade 2 is a lower x5

If Salagir uses the x4 multiplier for SSJ3 then Grade 2 would already allow Vegeta to surpass Goku. Especially since DBM Vegeta's base is stronger than DBM Goku's base.

@Drewsaga
corrected me on the forums by saying that Salagir uses a x10 multiplier for SSJ3, in which case, channeling Grade 3 would fit perfectly.

If Goku and Vegeta's base forms were even, then SSJ2 with G2 channeled would be even with SSJ3, but since Vegeta's base is stronger, that means it'll allow him to surpass Goku, much like it has been hinted at. 1 Replie(s)

Is Bra no longer a veteran warrior? Is Bra no longer a Saiyan?

It's just a joke. No need to get defensive.

Utilizei meus contatos para conseguir uma leak da próxima pagina aqui pra vocês.

1 Replie(s)

Here, let me leak the next page for all of you:



No double standards here. 1 Replie(s)

It's fine. And yeah that was my first time replying to you.



Seems it was a misunderstanding. My apologies.
This exchange is what confused me:

"When Vegito told her actions, she was not remorseful.

She literally didnt remember what she did."

I'm not sure how to interpret the placement and phrasing of that statement as anything other than a rebuttal.




But instead of portraying it as grey, the art portrayed Bra as a sad crying victim instead of someone who just did a massive fuckup
And portrayed Vegetto as an angry, scary aggressor instead of a father who is being forced to put down his own daughter because she's a massive threat to everyone around here and has gotten people killed multiple times with her lack of control.

Bra went from "I fucked up. I deserve to die" to "This is all your fault Vegetto" suddenly, and the spotlight was completely taken away from Bra's flaws and instead just all of the blame was put on Vegetto.

Vegetto has also only had a few slight hints of having a bit of anger issues in the past, but he was always able to distance himself from a situation to calm down, or restrain himself to not hurt anyone.
Even when he was enraged and thought Bardock and Cold broke the rules by invading his fight, he was still able to control himself enough to not actually harm them while restraining them, even with the massive power difference.

It was a massive sudden change from "anger issues, but never acts on them" to "BAD BAD man who gets drawn as a scary monster"

I go more in-depth in the thread I linked, as it compiles how many retcons happened in these past few pages. Pages 1827 and 1828 alone had a total of 11 retcons.




Essentially, retcon is short for retroactive continuity.
It's when a part of canon is changed or removed, meaning it is no longer valid, or is now actively contradicted by newer stuff.

Quick example:
During the Vegetto VS Broly fight, we get two different statements about how Vegetto has never gone above SSJ1 before
But the previous special chapter has shown him using SSJ3 against the illusion, and SSJ2 against Bra.
This means the fact that he never went SSJ1 before has either been removed from canon, or is being actively contradicted by more canon stuff. That's a retcon.

An example in Z itself:
Goku blows Cell's entire upper body, including his head, to smitherins.
Cell later says that he can regenerate if the nucleus in his head is intact. A weak spot which didn't exist during the fight with Goku. That's a retcon.



I agree that Majin Bra's personality was well done, sure.
I also agree that the way the fight was handled warrants heavy criticism.
However, the sheer amount of plot points that have been modified to make Bra look better is what makes me say that her writing has been atrocious.

To give a few examples...

Before being affected by Bra's retcon aura:

— Vegetto never went above SSJ1
— Vegetto has some anger issues but can control himself
— Vegetto is a decent dad
— U19 cares about their comrades' deaths enough to give Tidar a moment of silent even though he'll be res'd
— Gotenks is a fusiong of U16 and U18
— Gotenks is a gag character
— Goten and Trunks don't care to train
— Cell was taken by surprise but was able to resist Babidi's control (?)
— U18 Bra is devastated at Gohan's death and is angry at her U16 counterpart
— Majin Bra only breaks free because of U18 Bra's speech

After being affected by Bra's retcon aura:

— Vegetto has used SSJ2 against Bra, and SSJ3 against a illusion of Bra
— Vegetto can't control himself
— Vegetto is a bad parent
— U19 dismisses their comrades' deaths as U16's family issues
— Gotenks calls Vegetto "dad" implying he is completely from U16
— Gotenks is serious
— Goten and Trunks now believe in sharing responsibility for protecting the universe
— Being taken by surprise means you can't resist Babidi's control (?)
— U18 Bra is proud of her counterpart for controlling her power and is smiling at her
— Majin Bra broke free by herself 3 Replie(s)

You sure this isn't a case of too many cooks spoil the broth?
Because it would explain all of the retcons and sudden 180s

Comentários deram uma bugada aqui pra mim.  Meu primeiro comentário foi direto ao além.
Tentei comentar de novo (Update: Tentativa numero 5) e falou que eu já comentei a mesma coisa, e pra não fazer flood.
Fiz o logout, login de novo, e o  comentário não está nem aqui, nem na minha pagina. Então vou repetir ele, e espero que acabe sendo postado múltiplas vezes

Dende o começo deste capitulo, esta é a primeira pagina a não ter um retcon.
Parabéns, Salagir!







Bra? Consequências?
Kkkk

Last Page:



The crying and saying she deserves to die is because of the current Majin attack. The point about her not caring was about blowing up the planet.
The conversation was literally about how she didn't show remorse after being told what she did, despite now knowing that she did it.

It's funny that you'd accuse me of having a view carved in marble when you're the one deliberately misinterpreting what people say.


This Page:

Hey Buu, can you revive the writing? Maybe bring back Ashanark?

Also WOW first page in quite a while without a retcon!

Infelizmente, eu não falo francês.
Se alguém aqui sabe, pode sentir-se livre para traduzir a lista que eu fiz com os retcons feitos para salvar a Bra, e mostrar pra eles.
Pode traduzir e postar e qualquer linguagem que quiser, e postar nas sessões respectivas. Assim todas as sessões podem ver como o Salami esta destruindo a história inteira pra salvar a waifu dele.

Eu também retirei um pequeno excerto da lista e coloquei nos comentários da sessão inglesa ontem, mostrando que o Vegetto era um bom pai até este capitulo atual. Só dar um Ctrl+F e procurar o meu nome nos comentários ingleses, ou ir no meu perfil aqui no site mesmo pra ver meus comentários recentes.

Sim.
Eu parei de ler a sessão BR por volta da luta da Bra contra o Cold, más não lembro direito por quê.
Acho que eu fiquei de saco cheio com um cara que tava reclamando que a Bra não seria tão horrível se ela tivesse sido criada sendo forçada a ser mais feminina ou sei lá o que.

Apareci aqui agora porquê alguém no fórum perguntou sobre a reação das sessões de outras linguás, e se odeiam a Bra tanto quando a sessão Inglesa.
Talvez eu volte a ler aqui e deixe uns comentários se eu não esquecer.
A praga dos fãs da Bra deve ser combatida em todas as frentes. 1 Replie(s)

People are really eating up that "Vegetto was a bad parent all along!" retcon, huh?

— Here' Vegetto ignoring the fact that Bra nearly killed him, praising her for it, and calmly giving her a small talk and a test to prove that she can control herself


— Here's Vegetto not caring that she partially fucked up the test by hitting harder than she intended to, and still calmly giving her a pass anyways


— Vegetto being very forgiving of Bra assaulting a diplomat


— Vegetto calmly restraining Bra when she nearly jeopardizes Pan's revival for the second time


— Depite being pissed at the current situation, Vegetto still didn't mind Bra constantly disrespecting him. This also shows that Bra is not afraid of Vegetto



— Again having no reaction to Bra's disrespect


— Going out to cool his emotions instead of taking it out on Bra. Notice that Vegetto is battle damaged while Bra is not, which also shows she's not afraid to attack him.



— Coming back, calmer, to continue helping Bra


— Stepping in to protect her when it looks like Gotenks might hurt her


— Risking their participation in the tournament to try to save Bra


— Referring to her as his little Bra


— Ignoring her disrespect again after going through that risk for her


— Having complete faith that she wouldn't be taken over, and would help the Gohans save the day


— And lastly, actually asking Bra if what Buu said is true first before attacking her
1 Replie(s)

Para quem estiver interessado, estarei atualizando a lista de retcons no fórum de acordo com cada nova página que for lançada.
Se alguém encontrar um retcon que não esteja na lista, simplesmente mande-os para mim e serão adicionados com crédito. 1 Replie(s)

Bye guys. It's been great reading your comments all this time.
It seems we can add two more names, as well as "A lot of readers' interest" to Bra's kill list.



Hey, more stuff for my ever-growing list of retcons made just to make Bra look better!
I've posted the link to the list in the last two pages, and I recommend everyone go take a good look at it, so they can have an idea just how deep the rabbit hole goes!




Please, allow me:

Vegeta claims he became a Majin on purpose WHILE being a Majin: The plot has Gotenks say that he really did it on purpose.

Bra claims she became a Majin on purpose WHILE being a Majin: It's not her fault! Babidi can control what people say!!11!


Vegetto becomes a completely different being from Vegeta: Nope, still your fault even though you're not the same person.

Bra is still the same Bra: Not your fault at all UwU my waifu

"You never shown regrets for any of your past acts"

Past acts such as...?
Promising to keep the universe safe from a dangerous berserker? That's basically it.

A dangerous berserker who didn't show any regret for blowing up a planet and killing Goten, or trying to blow up the Earth.

Is this seriously how low this has come to now? Pretending it was Vegetto who did the things that Bra did?

Holy shit, this is like... a whole new level of retcon that's never been achieved before. It really shows just how far Salagir is willing to go for is waifu

Also, since it was completely ignored but seemingly not removed last page, I'll leave the link to my list of Bra-centric retons here again so everyone can see: https://d...-retcons-thread

I don't know if this comment will be allowed to stay or not since the rules say forum discussion should be kept on the forum, but Ashanark linked his Salagir reference thread and his comment wasn't removed.

Since I have made multiple comments complaining about all of the retcons made to make Bra look better, I decided to try to compile them all on a single thread in the forum

I guess Babidi can control what people say now too



Also, she broke the mind control on her own, but not from killing her loved ones. From being called weak by U18 Bra (who I guess forgot she did that.)
U18 Bra is no longer sad about Gohan being murdered by U16 Bra. Let's pretend that never happened.

These last few pages have just been rapid-firing retcons to make Salagir's favorite pet look better.

I guess Bra still doesn't care about killing Goten or blowing up that solar system, since she doesn't seem to understand why people wouldn't trust her.

@Argelios @Dr Raichi

Aight guys, these last pages have been ridiculous, so I think I might need to bring back to W-word to describe what exactly is going on with the writing here.

Bra is Salagir's W-A-I-F-U 1 Replie(s)

So...
— Bra continues to be a Creator's Pet. Having the plot bend itself in all sorts of impossible shapes to make her look better.
— People defending Bra against non-existant Mary Sue accusations again???
— Salagir continues to have the story contradict what he stated in the comments

Nothing new here, I guess?

This single page managed to add FOUR whole entries to the list of retcons made to favor Bra. Most impressive!

— Gotenks is no longer a fusion of both universes. Now he is only U16 so that he can better stand up for Bra
— Some barely comprehensible line about Vegeta being able to defy Babidi because he let hismelf be taken over???
— Gotenks went from a gag fusion of two characters who barely bother to train or raise Bra (since apparently Vegetto did it all alone or something) to a serios character who is all about sharing responsibility.
— Being taken by surprise means you can't resist the Majin spell, even though Cell was caught by surprise and still broke free.

I have tried so hard to remain respectful in my criticism of Bra's awful arc, but with all of this favoritism it's honestly hard not to bring back the dreaded W-word that bothered Salagir enough to make a mini comic last time. 1 Replie(s)

@Memati

> Page 1742: "You hurt your friends". It isnt only "you are weak". It's what seems to trouble her the most, yes, but please lets not ignore that her friends still crossed her mind. And it took u18 Bra quite alot of talking into her to get her to that point, not simply calling her outright weak and passive. And the efforts of the others, while having been completely unsuccessfull at first, obviously had a belated effect that made her finally struggle and brought her onto her knees after u18 Bra started talking some sense into her.

Still a single thought. The efforts of others that we're shown are just them calling her weak, or saying Babidi is stronger than her.
You say the their efforts "obviously had a belated effect" but again, the efforts we're shown through her mind is her being called weak.

> There is not a single evidence that the majin seal didn't influence Bra or that she was in full control. All I've read is lotsa headcanon and so called facts made up by people who've been hating on bra since forever. And I already stated mine. It completely goes against her character. Why would she even bother protecting Babidi if all she wanted was to murder everyone? Why would she want to control her ssj2, if all she wanted was to let go and murder everyone? Not hurting anyone anymore was the very reason she wanted to learn controlling herself in the first place. And to not be killed by daddy Vegetto of course... But in Page 276 it was clearly shown how she feels when she accidently hurts them. Notice how she is in ssj2 at this time like at the majin rebellion, but unlike there while under Babidis spell, she actually reacts to hurting her family here.

There's been plenty of people pointing out that it is in character for Bra to be that selfish, cruel, and dismissed of everyone else.
Page 276 was A SINGLE INSTANCE several years ago. Compare that to the several, several, several dozens of times we've seen Bra be a complete scumbag. This "evidence" requires us to ignore 99.9% of Bra's screentime. (More on this in a bit.)
The only probably piece of evidence is her referring to Babidi as master.

You're also ignoring the fact that most of the people who have been "hating Bra since forever" straight up left after the Senzu bean. Nearly all anti-Bra comments recently have gone in-depth and elaborated on why they dislike Bra and how the writing around her is shoddy, but here once again we see it being dismissed as "bra haters"

> There is not a single evidence for this. All I've read people claiming is how Bra said it while having that big M on her forehead. Thats no evidence. Anything Bra said while beeing influenced by the majin spell shouldn't be taken at face value. Especially since the very moment she broke free she started regretting everything. The very first moment that big M vanished, she started crying about what she did. Thats just further prove how much the spell influenced her. She wasn't herself when she did all these things.

Still ignoring how people have pointed out that it is in-character for Bra based on almsot everything we've been shown, save for two pages several years ago. (And this sudden 180 this chapter)

> Sure yes they could've done a better job

This is pretty much what I've been trying to say for multiple pages now.
The writing around Bra is awful, and portrays her as a scumbag with zero redeeming qualities 99.9% of the time. It suddenly did a full 180 for a whopping two pages years ago, which was so short and such a difference in character that it can be realistically argued to be an outlier.
Whether or not it is an outlier is besides the point. The fact that it could be argued at all is the problem, that being the writing around her being pretty damn bad.
Now that 180 is back, and people can actually realistically argue that it is out of character, since it is so far off from nearly everything we've been shown of Bra.
Even when trying to make her look good with the breakdown sequence, all the writing did was focus on her being called weak. Only sparing a single thought for the actual atrocities she comitted.

The point I've been trying to make these past few pages is that the writing has failed Bra, and it has failed miserably.
If it wanted the spell to be mind control, it completely failed to show that bar maybe calling Babidi "master."


Even if she mentioned Gohan here, it is too little too late. Especially when the writing has failed to show that she was mind controlled/didn't willingly become a Majin.
She didn't care about possibly killing all the Z fighters + Gohan by blowing up Earth. She didn't care about killing Goten. She still treats everyone around her like shit.
Again, compare that to a single scene years ago in space, a single line in the breakdown, and a few speech bubbles this chapter, and the difference is still too large to be believable.

If you still want to say it isn't Bra's fault, then fine. Just don't blame Babidi or Vegetto either. Blame the right person:
Bra's situation is Salagir's fault.

Sorry if this comment is rambly and not very well put. I've been awake for like 32 hours.

@Memati

> You are just reading what you want to read, because the same u18 Bra told her she is beeing controlled by Babidi, that she is his slave. She blamed her for beeing unable to break free, when even her father didn't obey him.
And u16 Bra at this point knows she fucked up. She knows what she did and how she failed. Why in the world would she disagree and play innocent after thinking back and finally realizing what she did? She knows that she couldn't even resist Babidis little spell and murdered all these people. She blames herself for "allowing" that to happen as in ending up beeing controlled by him. By saying "I let it happen" she simply accepts its her fault, not that she welcomed babidi with open arms.
And what Vegetto says matters little, since he doesn't know the circumstances of her falling under his spell. Him calling it easy to break free is completely inaccurate too, since only 2 in the entirety of dragonball pulled that feat off. It just shows that he is heavily disappointed in her and had much higher expectations that were failed.

She ditching him in space with very oxygen against his will. That doesn't sound like a slave to me.
She doesn't need to disagree out loud. A simple thought bubble of "I failed to resist" would have been enough. Instead we get one of her saying she let it happen (arguing semantics won't change that.)
Also, look back at the pages where she "broke free", what caused it? Being called weak multiple times. That's all it focuses on. Looks fairly easy to me, from how it is portrayed.

> This isnt about her beeing a hero. This is about people in such circumstances often blaming themselves and stating "they let it happen" or they let x or y die, even when lacking the power or abilities to achieve a different outcome.
And what evidence? In the contrary, there is evidence she was not in control the entire time, because it is totally out of character for Son Bra to willingly call Babidi of all people her "Master" and protect him. There is literally 0 reasons for anyone, even the bad guys, to freely give themselves up into babidis mind control. I could see her struggling to resist and then giving up for beeing promised control over her powers, something she struggled with her entire life. But just letting it happen? I don't see Bra or anyone else for that matter doing that.

Then that's a flaw of the writing, which is a common thing when it comes to Bra.
Also, I'd love to see some of that evidence of yours. Because multiple people have been presenting evidence and arguing for many pages now, and it's been completely ignored. I have yet to see a single piece of evidence from the Pro-Bra side.

> Lets completely ignore she only broke free moments ago and spent the entirety since then down on her knees, crying her eyes out. And killing Gohan is one of the first things she mentioned at the start of this chapter.

You say that, yet you ignore how the breakdown sequence portrayed her as only caring that people called her weak and passive. Simply replacing some of these with more images of her regretting what she did during the breakdown would fix the issue.

> Yup. People under mind control are always made to believe that they are acting out of their own free will, even if thats not the case.

Again, people have argued and provided evidence for why they think Bra was not mind controlled. I have yet to see evidence provided from the side who thinks she was indeed being controlled.

@JoshuavV

Yeah but earlier you said that people don't think both can be flawed by unresolved issues. Where are those people who think Vegetto is perfect?
People are arguing that Vegetto is right IN THIS SITUATION, and no one made any claims about him not being disturbed.
The comment you tagged me to isn't saying anything about Vegetto not being disturbed, or never being wrong. It is saying that he's right to want to dispose of this threat.

Is arguing that Bra should die somehow arguing that Vegetto isn't perturbed and can never be wrong? Absolutely not.
I don't understand why Bra's defenders seem to constantly defend her against claims that either no one made, or stopped being made years ago.

@CrystalMV

That's still not what letting it happen means.
If it wasn't willing, then it's something like "couldn't stop" or "fell prey to" or even "beaten by".
Letting it happens means doing so willingly. Trying to moralize by making an inappropriate (and still wrong) comparison to rape is just ridiculously uncalled for.

@Bloodgaze

> So those things you listed had absolutely no effect on Bra, at all; they don't matter?. Even though there was an entire page that showed all of those memories?

That "entire page that showed all those memories" doesn't exist.
You mean the page that listed her being called weak? Page 1741 and all but one sentence of page 1742
So this "entire page" is just one single sentence. And I guess one panel now, with this current page. 2 Replie(s)

@Memati

> When someone says "this only happened because I let it happen" or "how could I let it happen?", "how could I let it get this far", they are often blaming themselves for having failed to prevent something or stop someone.

She wasn't the only one who said it. U18 Bra and Vegetto both said it too, and she didn't disagree. The other two quotes aren't present at all, so pretending Bra said them is not really a point.
U18 Bra was quite clearly meant to be a stand in for the audience, too.

> Especially heroes often show this way of thinking when losing one of their loved ones by failing to save them or failing to stop the villain. Even after getting manipulated or mind controlled, they still often blame themselves over what they did no matter if they had a chance to change something or not. In my point of view, Bra here is simply blaming herself for failing to resist and falling for Babidis spell.

She's quite clearly not a hero.
The rest of this has already been argued to death. There's been plenty of evidence provided about why it is perfectly in character and makes sense for her to have willingly become a Majin, and might have still been in control of herself the entire time, all of which has been convinently ignored in favor of fighting against points no one made.

> You shouldn't take everything someone says at face value, especially from someone who feels guilty after failing everyone

Guilty for failing everyone? If we look back at what's going through her mind when the seal breaks, all but one of her thoughts are about being called weak.
In fact, the second that single thought shows up is when she starts making excuses.
And here, once again, the fact that she killed Gohan only even bothers to cross her mind when she's actively reminded of it.

That doesn't seem like someone who feels guilty for failing everyone.

@JoshuaVV

> People are still picking sides over this? Why is that even a discussion? Is it not possible they're BOTH in the wrong while also BOTH being victims to unresolved issues?

Is there a "Vegetto has zero blame" side? I haven't seen it.
I have seen the "Bra is to blame" and "Bra is not to blame" sides, but I haven't seen anyone claim Vegetto doesn't have unresolved issues.
Who are you even arguging with?

> Why? Why can't she get better? Why can't Vegito be wrong? Why can't we learn anything from this and wonder how it could reflect on our own lives? It just sounds like people want Bra to die so the character development and characters arcs end and we get back to just mashing random fighters together.

Vegetto being right in this situation does not mean Vegetto can't ever be wrong.
Also, you've completely ignored every point people have made about Bra.

@CaptainKashup

> But alas, most people in the English comment section doesn't seem to get it.

Just because you choose to ignore people's arguments doesn't mean they don't get it.
In fact, actively ignoring people's points just so you can dismiss them as having inferior reading comprehension makes it sound like you're the ones who don't get it.

@Hercule

> It isn't. Even if it did solve the problem, living with the guilt and shame, trying to make up for what she did is much harder.

What matters is that it solves the problem.
Bra has shown that every second she spends alive is a threat to billions of people.
Her making some attempt at "making up" or freakin' having sad feelings doesn't even begin to compare to the amount of people she's straight up murdered.
She should be killed because she's a massive threat to everyone, and has to be dealt with. Her feelings are worthless next to that. 1 Replie(s)

@CrsytalMV

> Letting it happen =/= consenting to it. If you're physically capable of preventing something but you don't put enough willpower to prevent it, in some sense you "let it happen", but that doesn't mean you genuinely accept it.

What?
That is EXACTLY what letting it happens means.
If you tried to stop it but didn't have enough willpower or something else, then you didn't let it happen, you just failed at stopping it despite your best efforts. 2 Replie(s)

Another instance of it being implied that Bra let herself turn Majin on purpose, and she's not denying it yet again.

Gonna add that to my list of reasons why Bra was indeed responsible for what she did.

It's also nice to finally see Pan's reaction. But I would still have preferred it is she became a Super Saiyan 2 and just started beating up Bra. See how she likes being on the receiving end of a berserk rage for once. 1 Replie(s)

@frostyross

You've said "Vageta" and claimed that everything is Vegetto's fault multiple times now.
Are you a Freaky alt? You even go on similar tangents.

@عمار

Well said, as always.
Seems my prediction earlier in the page was right, too.



People who supposedly dislike power levels and thinking any sort of consistency = power levels 1 Replie(s)

Prediction: Bra's defenders will reply with the classic "wasn't her fault because XYZ" 1 Replie(s)

Something else I forgot to add in that comment, is how Salagir said back in Page 230 that SSJ2 is a 10x multiplier. (SSJ1 Being x50)
So how come SSJ Bra = Base Vegetto but somehow SSJ2 Bra is anywhere near SSJ Vegetto?
How is Bra getting a x10 boost somehow comparable to Vegetto using a x50 boost? Is Bra's SSJ2 just the strongest ever for no given reason?
Has Bra gotten five times stronger since the start of the tournament somehow?

I should add that to the list of rules that don't apply if you're Bra 1 Replie(s)

@ MUI

> But now I want to know: Why did Gast not use this against ghost SSJ3 Vegeta and LSSJ Broly?

@ عمار

> Sooooo why did Ghast save Bra? No, I'm seriously asking, WHY DID HE SAVE HER?!!

I can't help but feel like the answer to both of these questions is the same.

@ UMW

> 3 people have brought up Bra unprovoked on this page. Two of which, preemptively defending her from... No one.

Don't forget bringing up Mary Sue accusations again

> Let's see if the technique lasts

Would be a welcome change of pace if it did

@DrewSaga

> Comments Section: Bra is a Mary Sue!
> Gast & Zen Buu: That's cute. Watch my incredibly haxxed and godlike abilities in action.

You mean hax abilities like goo clones that imprison your opponent, shields that reflect instead of just blocking, a technique that can completely destroy Buu even if you're weaker than him, godly teleportation to anywhere without a ki signature, pulling fight-winning moves off-panel, and knowing information (Cell's nucleus) you were never taught?
Don't forget going to "maybe comparable" in raw power to SSJ1 Vegetto, to "could easily beat" SSJ1 Vegetto in one arc despite Salagir himself saying you wouldn't be getting any Zenkais in DBM 1 Replie(s)

@Vagabond

> ofc it's not his fault alone but as a parent he is responsible for his parenting.

But it does mean that literally no one was able to fix Bra's attitude. Not even Bulma.
And like I said, that comment was more directed at the people who say it is 100% Vegetto's fault and no one else's.
He definitely has a majority of the blame, but not all of it.

> No shit they don't. But that was not the point. It was not about the consequences of their action, but about how much children are actual responsible for what they do as children.

If she accidentally did it then I'd understand, but she still did it with clear intent. At the very least she should have been sent straight to therapy. I don't care if you were born 15 seconds ago, if you purposefully try to blow up the planet (and nearly succeed), you're a gigantic threat who needs to be dealt with immedieately.

> Why not assume the most probable outcome? We have no reason to assume otherwise and got shown she cares about her family. It's a fanmanga with only three pages per week at most. One dedicated scene is more then enough to get the point across. No need to drive the point into the ground and waste pages and time. Also, she showed shame and regret for not beeing able to control herself when she killed Zangya despite her trying.

Because based on these last few pages and Bra's sudden chagne in attitude, we're apparently supposed to see her as having potential to be good. Yet we've only been shown that once, which is completely outweighted by the hundreds of times she's been horrible.
Also, there's been a ton of pages wasted on explosions. The Buu rampage and Ginyu/Bra plot were basically filler and accomplished nothing. Plenty of space to rearrange

> So? point still stands.

Not really. You claimed she mocked him for not wanting to ask for help.
I pointed out that this happened after he revelaed that he thought no one would help in the first place, that winning was their only chance.
She doesn't go "Nah you shouldn't be paranoid." instead she mocks him about trying to save his universe while mistakengly thinking everyone was his enemy.


> She wasn't either.

That big panel of her lifting her scytche above her head looks pretty heroic and "this is meant to be a good thing" to me.
Characters praise her skills after she got beaten to a pulp for making a stupid bet, which sounds like painting her in a good light.

> Sure. But that's not the point here.

I'm trying to talk about the writing, so yeah, being comparable to one of the worst points of DBZ is pretty bad for the writing.

> It does exactly show what is argued here. That she does care about her family and she does care about herself losing control.

Except this is only the second time we've seen her not being a scumbag to her family. Compare that to all the times she's killed or insulted them.
The difference is so huge that the good stuff FEELS LIKE an outlier. It may not literally be one, but it feels like one, and that's a problem with the writing not showing us her redeeming qualities more than twice in all those years of runtime.

> Prove it doesn't. Forced to do an magicans bidding seems pretty self explanatory.

I have provided evidence.
Behaviour is consistent with 99.9% of what we've seen of Bra. Bra herself says she let it happen. U18 Bra also says she let it happen and she was acting as the audience's voice. She could break free at any time if emotionally disturbed, but said disturbance did not come from killing her family, instead from bein called weak.
You're the one who has to provide evidence now. Just going "Nah doesn't count" isn't a rebuttal.

> I don't argue that it couldn't be made better and clearer.

We definitely agree here.

> Maybe wait until we know more before making assumptions. We will know soon enough.

I'm making a deduction based on what we've seen, and what would be consistent with her character.
Also you're making assumptions too by claiming she was completely mind controlled.

> She wouldn't be when she was a child or not in control of herself. That's how the law works.

The law doesn't usually deal with people who can kill billions with a blink and break out of any prison. It wasn't made with this in mind.

> It's Dragonball. Death and destruction lose a lot of their impacpt if you grew up in a world where death and destruction are effortlessly reversible

Not an excuse at all. This has been discussed to death and other people have debunked it much better than I could.

> And again, she was a child in the second case.

Again, she blew up a inhabited planet (possibly multiple since it was a star system). That goes beyond any excuse.

> Still wouldn't be legal tho. Also, killing is such a grave crime, because it's irreversible in our world. not so in DBZ, so the whole real life parallel is flawed to begin with.

Again, no excuse. Has been rebutted more times than I can count.

> She did babidis bidding. Killing his opponents, saving him from harm and protecting him. Why would she do the second thing if she wasn't beeing controlled by him or be in control of herself? Just like the Goons in DBZ( minus Vegeta) served him. What more do you need?

Because Babidi's magic is what's allowing her to control SSJ2 so if he dies too soon she probably thought she'd lose that power. She was probably planning to kill him as soon as she thought she could control the power herself.
What I need? Honestly to fix this poorly written mess you'd need to rewrite pretty much all of Bra's scenes so she acts less like someone who'd willingly become a Majin for power, and replace a lot of the filler with scenes of Bra actually having a good side, or redo these last few pages to take away the "be sympathetic towards Bra" art. Because with the way the story is currently done, this is a huge tone shift, basically a complete 180 on Bra's portrayal save for one single page several years ago.

> We don't know that yet. And if she did so because she wanted to control her powers to avoid beeing killed by her father and underestimated the spells power, that still does not make her evil.

Page 1603 disagrees (The comic itself disagreeing with Pro-Bra statements seems to be a recurring theme)

> We will see soon enough.

Would be quite the asspull considering all of the evidence I mentioned

> If. Still, there is a difference between cleanly executing somebody and beating one to death.

I thought the Dragon Balls meant destruction is irrevelant? They can just wish the memory away like they made everyone forget Buu, so torture means nothing.

@UMW

> The real problem, imo, is that all criticism is being met with the same attitude and same tired counterarguments from the opposite camp, who's failed to evolve. Often being misinformed on the totality of the opinion being shared or intentionally leaving out context entirely to make the opinion they disagree with look inferior.

Perfectly put.
Honestly, unless the Pro-Bra side starts presenting actual evidence, this comment will be my last one addressing them at all.

@Broku

> Man, you almost hi-jacked the whole comment section.

Hi-jacked?
I HAVE CONTROLLED EVERYTHING SINCE THE BEGINNING!
I'm everywhere! I have your comments! I have your reports!
I know your posts and I play with your replies!


. 1 Replie(s)

@Hercule

> Vegetto raised her to be his sparring partner from the moment she was born.

Alone?

> She was taught from birth that dragonballs can fix anything, and so there's no consequences for killing people.
If it's OK for Vegetto to kill Bra because they can revive her with the dragon balls, doesn't that reinforce that she doesn't face any consequences for her rampage?

If she had been taught that there's no consequences for killing people, than Vegetto probably wouldn't care about her killing Goten or losing control, as they can just fix the damage.
And she'd learn what it is like to lose for once. The same way Vegeta learned his lesson by getting the shit beaten out of him and killed multiple times. She'd be humbled and have a clear starting point from which to begin making progress as a person.

> I believe she should be held accountable for her actions. However, I think Majin Vegeta is also guilty of killing innocents, and is also guilty of endangering the universe by allowing Majin Buu to be released. This is important because Vegetto owes his existence to the fact that Vegeta was not held accountable for his actions.

The problem is that no prison can hold her, and she'd just storm out of therapy. So unless someone puts her in the Mafuba, the only way to punish her is to either beat the shit out of her like Vegeta often got beaten up, or kill her. Vegetto is the only person strong enough to do the latter, and the story covinently skipped over Pan's reaction so she won't be doing any beating up.

> At one point, so was DB Piccolo Jr, Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Majin Buu.

The Vegeta comparison has been made hundreds of times and debunked just as many.
Two of these were born to evil and got the shit beaten out of them, and died, until they improved. The third one was mentally incapable of understanding consequences but still got the shit beaten out of him until he improved.
Bra is spoiled and mentally capable, which sets her apart from those.
Also, all three of these were villains and presented as so. Can you imagine if after the Kamehameha VS Galick Gun struggle, Vegeta started crying and apologizing?
Quick note: I hate Vegeta. So "You like Vegeta but not Bra" doesn't work on me

> Vegetto said he'd kill her before letting her surpass him. By not killing Bra as soon as she was the second strongest being in U16, he made himself just as responsible for her actions.

Vegetto was not sufficiently cautious of Babidi. As Vegeta, he had firsthand experience of what Babidi is capable of, he knows that Majin Vegeta committed atrocities even if Babidi couldn't fully control him, and would know that Majin Bra would have less willpower.
Instead of keeping an eye on U11 after Buu was eliminated, he let Babidi neutralise him and allowed Bra to wreak havoc.
He does not deserve to pass judgment on Bra.

But sadly he is the only one who physically can

@Vagabond

> That's not how this works even if Vegettos parenting was shown as the sole reason for her control issues, which it wasn't. Similiar to her father she has an inherent emotionally unstable nature.

This is true. However I've seen more than a few comments in the past few pages claiming it is all Vegetto's fault.

> Normal children get carried away all the time, that does not make them evil. It's just not a big deal if they do.

Normal children don't blow up a planet with billions of people on it. There comes a point where "They're a child" is no longer an excuse.

> That was years ago. One would assume they made up in those years.

Then show us that! I've mentioned this before: We have a grand total of one scene of Bra having any redeeming qualities, and that's when she regretted hurting Gohan and Vegetto against Buu. Everything else we have to contrast with is her being a horrible human being.
Not to mention that single instance was several years ago.

> That was not the reason she talked down to her opponent specifically (not to all heliots). She did so because he would rather risk the life of everyone present instead of asking for help.

His speech just prior to her mockery made it pretty obvious that he thought them winning was the only choice.

> she is a sayain after all. BTW Vegeta did so multiple times, Goku did not go ssj3 and ended vegeta's tantrum before buu was resurrected and gave Cell a bean for fairness sake etc. This is pretty normal behaviour for DBZ standards.

Vegeta wasn't framed as one of the good guys when doing that stuff, and Goku's SSJ3 is one of the worst plot points in all of DBZ

> She was. At least she was not beeing herself doing babidis bidding.

Prove it. This argument has been used and responded to countless times these past few pages, but instead of it being updated to face the responses, it is just repeated over and over again.

> We don't know exactly how the spell works. It makes sense that appealing to one's sense of self would be effective. Kinda like Vegeta could resist it because his pride gave him a strong sense of self from the start.
That does not mean beeing called weak is somehow worse for her than killing her brother. And would not be in character at all from what we have been shown from her so far.

Then why are 14/15 of the thoughts we're shown about her being called weak? Why aren't we shown more panels of her regretting it BEFORE the mark goes away? Again, if it isn't meant to be interpreted as that, then this is a huge failing of the writing.

> Again we don't know how Babidis mind control and the inner battle to break free works. When she hurt Gohan in space she broke down unable to fight on and left them at buus mercy. That does not fit with the way you are trying to portrait her here.

There have already been comments made before about how Bra's character has changed over the years. Plus it's like I said, that was one single instance several years ago.
At this point, THAT was the Out Of Character moment, as it is a single scene against every other appearance of her being a scumbag.

> She was as far as we know atm. At least she was in an altered state of mind.

Again, prove it. And even if she was, I have pointed out that U18 Bra accuses her of letting herself be taken over on purpose, and she doesn't dispute it in any way. We're even given a thought of her thinking that she let it happen before she breaks.

> Nobody said she is

There were definitely people arguing that because of her age she shouldn't be helf fully accountable or something like that a few pages ago.

> She was under Babidis spell and took glee in killing her opponents. Not in killing bystanders or destroying the universe.

Even if she were, which I have yet to see definitive proof for, she didn't seem bothered at all by slaughtering all of the spectators during the fight, and when she woke up after destroying a planet she didn't care and was just happy she surpassed Gohan.

> It happend once in the past as a child and now under Babidis spell as far as we know. Even in our world, where there are no Dragonballs to reverse such events, killing somebody for crimes they have yet to commit as a precaution is not right nor just nor legal

In the real world someone can't flick their wrist and kill several billion people

> And no, an accident as a child is not a crime, neither is doing what she did while not beeing herself and under babidis influence.

Then how about slaughtering a bunch of people in these past few chapters? Again, still waiting for that proof that this was a complete mind control. And even if that, there's the fact that she seemingly let herself be controlled on purpose just to become stronger.

> You could argue the second part IF she willingly let herself be controlled. But we don't know that yet.

What little information we have seems to point to yes.

> She has no obligation to let herself get slowly beat to death in a fit of rage

I said that under the assumption that she willingly let herself become a Majin to stop caring and become stronger. If that's the case, then she knew what she was getting into.

@ZenBuu

> First, people say she needs commeuppance and should be punished for what she did, and when she finally gets punished, they actually use her eyes as Salagir's excuse, that he only wants to protect his "waifu" at any cost, so lets give her wet, puppy eyes, where everyone instantly feels bad for her and thus making Vegito to the big bad guy who is obviously abusive and totally out of character...totally suprising, right? Yeah, not really.


Like I said with that other person's comment, this is reductive and dishonest.
The entire way these pages and been drawn and framed have a clear pattern. Vegetto is picture as a scary angry man and Bra is shown as a crying little girl and always pictured as below Vegetto. The implications about who is supposed to be sympathetic are clear.
If this isn't on purpose then it is a huge accident on the part of the art, and worthy of all of the criticism it has been getting.

> We already knew for several years from Bardock's vision, that Vegito has some screws loose and eventually will totally lose it and freak out.

A few pages back, عمار made a great comment about how Vegetto's character has been changed over the story and why this looks out of character

> Also we never saw Vegito outside of his fight against Buu,

Vegetto refused to kill Buu because he wanted to save his friends and family, even though they could be wished back really easily. Is that not enough for you?
Then just look at his fusees. Did Vegeta, even before admitting Goku is number one, ever look like he would snap and break Kid Trunks' neck?
Did Goku ever seen like he'd threaten to kill Goten of he surpassed him?

> while Bra never hurt or killed anyone on purpose

Still waiting for proof

> And he's also a huge hypocrite

Sure. I agree with that at least.

> No matter where Salagir moves with Bra/U16, its wrong.

There has been a metric ton of discussion about how this could have been handled better. Look at UMW's comments, or all of the comments I made about how the writing could have been better. 1 Replie(s)

This is reductive and dishonest

Dicussing in length =/= being mad.
There's been multiple talks about writing in general, deus ex machinas, mary sues, presenting a character, foreshadowing, retconning, etc. This isn't all about a single fictional character. This is about the writing in a long-running series plummeting in quality, it's just that this character is at the center of it.

She's far past the point of being fixed by a lesson.
Having Bulma, Gohan, Gotenk, Trunks, Piccolo, Chichi, and the rest of the Z-Fighters helping raise her wasn't enough to make her not a psycho.
She tried to blow up the earth, killing Gohan by asphyxiation to win a sparring match before Vegetto's parenting had any time to affect her.
She destroyed a solar system and killed Goten, and only cared about the fact that she's now stronger than Gohan.
She continues to mock and belittle Goten, seemingly not caring that she killed him. (If you say it's because Dragon Balls, then killing Bra here is also okay because Dragon balls)
She mocked the Heliots for their universe being in danger, and in the novel didn't care about the audience being taken hostage
She risked the Heliots' entire universe by taking a stupid bet to show off
She has spent the past several chapters murdering people, and even if you believe she "was mind controlled":

Fifteen thoughts go through Bra's head while "breaking free," it seemed to be because of emotional turmoil. What caused said turmoil?
Not killing Gohan or Piccolo

Page 1741 are all about how she doesn't like people looking down on her and her power
Page 1742 finally has a single thought about the people she's massacred while laughing. This is the only thought she has that isn't about her ego, and she immediatelly starts making excuses.
Page 1744 has the speech that breaks her, and it's all about how she's not really the strongest. Not about her slaughtering the heroes (and Cell and Buu)
Page 1745 focuses on people insulting her, and ends with "because I let it happen" *which is basically a confession that she willingly became a Majin*
Then what she screams while "breaking free" is defending her power once again.
She has fifteen thoughts that cause her to break free, and only a single one is about having killed her supposed loved ones. The rest are all about "I Bra I strongerest there is pls no insult me"

Even if you believe she was mind controlled, what caused her to break it was not killing her family, but being called weak. And Bra herself disagrees with that idea, as she doesn't dispute that she let it happen, instead just screaming that she's not passive.

This isn't an innocent child. This is a dangerous mass murderer who would take glee in destroying the universe, and keeping the innocents safe from her should take precedense.

Hell, she knew that Vegetto said he'd kill her if she lost control like that again.
She seemingly willingly "lost control" by letting herself become a Majin. Admitted it was all her fault. And then when Vegetto tries to keep his promise, she catches his fist.

"You dare?!" may have been OOC but it is a fitting response to her bullshit 1 Replie(s)

A comment by Salagir on page 278

Near the bottom of the previous page's comments, Ashanark linked a great list of all comments by Salagir

Gast being comparable to SSJ3 is from his fight with Ghost Vegeta, and Ashanark's link says Salagir confirmed it in an email or something like that 1 Replie(s)

Just another entry on the list of retcons made to favour Bra.

"Base saiyans can never surpass a Super Saiyan" unless you're Bra
"Vegetto is superior to Bra is all forms" but he seemingly defaults to using SSJ3 against her SSJ2
SSJ2 Bra is comparable to SSJ1 vegett-- Actually nevermind she could beat him easily. This is after a statement that Bra won't get any Zenkais in DBM



Just like Gast - who was supposedly inexperienced SSJ3 tier - is apparently about to be retconned to be strong enoug to stop Enraged SSJ3 Vegetto to save Bra.

Honestly, the Bra favoritism is ridiculous. I also can't help but notice how only one person (Super Gojita 3. Thank you for taking the time to reply!) actually tried to answer my questions for Bra's defenders last page, and even that was simply "we'll never know." (Though I think we already know from Bra's last thought before screaming and breaking the Majin seal) 2 Replie(s)

I'm all in on the "Bra was acting under her own will" train, but I'll reach across the table and write this under the pretense that she really was 100% under Babidi's control

When she's breaking free, the thoughts that go through her head and cause her to regain control, are them of killing Gohan? Nope. They're of people talking negatively about her power.
She was able to break free when under emotional distress from being called weak and passive by a few people.
Emotional distress which wasn't present when slaughtering her loved ones. Or at least not enough to make her break free.
So even without the Majin seal, Bra is still more mentally affected by being called weak than she is by killing the people who raised her.

And what's Bra's final thought before screaming and breaking free?



"Because I let it happen."
Now, what did she let happen? Hmm... 1 Replie(s)

If Xisback did do that first, then I honestly apologize. I must have missed his comment. I was in the wrong here, and I'm sorry.

As for what he said being an argument...

Based on what we've seen, it is accurate.
— Bra gets an appaling amount of panel time
— There have been multiple retcons made just for her benefit
— The few times she gets consequences, the page's art portrays it as a bad thing. Even if by accident.
— Everything she does is given an excuse. Nothing is ever her fault.
— She gets to do stuff off-panel to win.
— The people who could punish Bra without it making her look sympathetic are all conviniently ignored.
— Salagir comes to her defense to the point of making a minicomic mocking people who criticize that preferential treatment.

That's definitely worth being called a Creator's Pet

— Vegetto is canon
— His personality issues here are nothing like in canon, nor like his canon fusees.
— Outside his two fights, he's mostly relegated to orbiting around Bra
— His positive moments with Bra (p. 1821's comment I mentioned) are ignored
— So his negative moments can be exhagerated in a way that, again even if "accidentally" according to Salagir, makes it look like Bra is being framed in a forced sympathetic light

That covers a canon character being wasted to create an excuse for Bra

So yeah, I'd say his comment is a fairly accurate criticism of how the story is failing to properly portray Salagir's intentions with Bra, and isntead throwing Vegetto under the bus.



I have. He controlled himself and left. Didn't act on anything. He showed the determination to do the right thing, unlike this sudden change in these last two pages.
Have you read the comment I mentioned yet?
1 Replie(s)

@ People saying this isn't a recton

عمار made two great comments on page 1821 showing how this does look a lot like a retcon, comparing it to multiple past pages.




People are "not understanding him" because the comic completely contradicts what he claims.
And the solution to the people mad is simple: Have Vegetto actually keep his promise and just insta-kill Bra, without giving us multiple pages of her looking sad in what can only be described as an attempt, even if accidental, to make us feel bad for her. Also without pages of Vegetto being retconned into a psycho to make Bra look better by comparison.
That way she could get consequences, not be made forceully sympathetic, not hog screentime, she wouldn't get an underserved power up, and Vegetto wouldn't be made a monster.
It's that easy.





Considering the choice here is either exploit Bra's obsession, or let her rampage and destroy the whole universe?
Yeah, fuck her feelings. The lives of trillions of innocents is worth way more than that.




I'm not mad, just disappointed. Because once upon a time DBM was amazing. And even with its current flaws, I'd still say it is better than Super or GT.
It's just that the quality takes a nosedive whenever Bra takes control. I criticize DBM because I want to see it improve back to its prime.
Also you're the one dismissing people's opnions as "salt" and "crying" so if anyone sounds mad, it's you. No need to be so damn rude.







I'll refer again to عمار's comment on page 1821, and how she still had all of the other Z Fighters + Bulma and Chichi, so Vegetto can't have single handedly fucked her up that bad, especially when she was already trying to destroy the Earth and kill Gohan at such a young age.
And she has to answer to Vegetto because he's the only one who can actually to anything to her, and because as people pointed out last page, teh comic conviniently skipped over the reactions of the people affected so we could instead focus on Bra looking sad and being beaten up, but again she's totally not meant to be sympathetic or anything. 2 Replie(s)

So last page wasn't enough, so Vegetto's personality has to be retconned even harder to make Bra look like the victim, and now she's been given the ability to control her SSJ2 without the Majin seal purging her mind of doubt.

It hasn't even been a whole chapter since Vegetto's promise was "I'll kill you because you're a danger to the universe" and it has already been retconned into "I'll beat you up first, then kill you sadistically."

I'm gonna repeat what I said last time. With all of this shit, I cannot see Salagir's claim of "Bra is not meant to be sympathetic" as anything more than a lie. Unless he's just failing to put his intention on paper, as the pages have shown the exact opposite of what he claims.

At this point I'm expecting Bra to somehow dodge SSJ2 Vegetto's attack and instinctively counter it hard enough to make him bleed next page, because we can't go half a page without a reminder of how good Bra is.

I seriously want to hear exactly WHAT Salagir is trying to do here, in detail. Because sadly it just looks right now like he lied about not wanting her to be sympathetic, and then went silent and stopped replying after people started pointing out all of the inconsistencies.


@ Bra's Defense Force

Speaking of which, y'all seem really fond if ignoring that:
— Bra's Majin seal WASN'T broken by killing her loved ones
— Bra's Majin seal WAS broken by being called weak
— Meaning she could break the seal at any moment if she was distressed, but being called weak and passive is more distressing than killing her loved ones
— Salagir has flat out stated that Bra is not meant to be sympathetic (even though that's not shown at all) 3 Replie(s)

Guys, it's okay. It's not Vegetto's fault!

You see, he was created with too much power and has double saiyan DNA. He's also got mental issues because he's always starving without Senzus. Not to mention how he had an abusive genocidal daughter.

As you can see, absolutely nothing is Vegetto's fault. 1 Replie(s)

Add to that the fact that we're never shown Bra interacting with Bulma, because Bulma would not let Bra's bullshit stand. And how the story pretends she didn't have Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, Bulma, Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Mr. Popo, Chi-Chi, The Ox King, Dende, Kibito, Old Kai, Supreme Kai, Roshi, and possibly more people, all to help raise her right.

Also how this isn't the first retcon made just to make Bra look better.

Salagir can claim as much as he wants that Bra isn't meant to be sympathetic (something Bra's defenders love to ignore, along with her being able to break the Majin spell herself at the end), but simply claiming that she "isn't meant to be sympathetic" doesn't mean anything when the art and what the writing excludes all completely contradicts it.

There's honestly no way I can look at Salagir's statement without seeing it as anything other than either a flat out lie, or him accididentally admitting that the comic has completely failed to get his intentions across, and has in fact done the complete opposite.

I did more than just color it. I fixed the writing to be consistent with Vegetto's threat.



As a nod to @عمار the blood splatter coming out of her back is a very specific one



and lastly:
@ people saying Bra's mess is okay because Dragonballs
That means killing Bra is also perfectly okay, because, y'know, Dragonballs.

19th of December of 2020

Son Bra has learned what consequences feel like... for now.

Don't worry, Bra fans. She's going to pull anti-Vegetto spray out of her glove, it'll just happen off-panel

If Zen Buu can put thoughts and memories into other people's minds, then that means he'd probably be able to force someone to drop out of Ultra Instinct, which requires a clear mind and for the user not to think.

That's... not how foreshadowing works at all. In fact:

— Swords exist
— U18 has Piccolo, who showed the ability to equip people with swords back in the Saiyan saga
— They hurt your opponent better than fists
— It was specified more than once that any objects are allowed

So if Goku suddenly opens his mouth mid-fight and throws up a sword like Orochimaru, by your definition, it was foreshadowed. 1 Replie(s)

Okay, so:

— Bra goes from Grade 1 to Grade 4 SSJ in a few hours
— Despite Salagir saying a long time ago that a Super Saiyan 1 shouldn't be stronger than Super Saiyan 2, Bra is above that rule
— Despite Salagir apparently saying that Babidi's spell can't be broken, Bra is above that rule
— Despite no unfused character being stronger than a fusion, except for Gohan's special case, Bra is above that rule
— Vegetto's stern treatement of Bra's shitty actions are framed in the art in a scary way, as if they're a bad thing
— The entire Senzu Bean thing in the Cold fight got excused as just happening off-panel
— Despite being willing to attack Ginyu in Goku's body on Namek, and destroy Videl's body, the Gohans are extra hesitant to fight Bra
— Bulma gets convinently left out of the story since she would fix Bra's attitude
— Despite his base form being supposedly stronger than Ultimate Gohan, Vegetto seemingly needed SSJ2 to keep up with SSJ2 Bra (both in the last special, and with Ginyu controlling her body)
— Despite SSJ2 Vegetto apparently never having been seen before in the Broly fight, and Vegetto saying he'd kill Bra if she got close to surpassing him, Vegetto used SSJ3 to knock out Ginyu in Bra's body. Which just made Bra look stronger than she should/ Vegetto look weaker than he should.

I can see why people think Salagir is trying to make her look sympathetic. Not only has he gone back on his word for Braifu more than once, the story also shows an annoying amount of favoritism towards her.
Him reacting to this criticism by making a mini-comic mocking it, then proceeding to seemingly not take any of the criticism into account, really doesn't help.

Let's be honest: Bulma wouldn't take that kinda shit from Bra. So if they interacted at all, Bra wouldn't have an excuse to behave like she currently does.
IMO It's also why Vegetto had a completely personality change from canon. So Bra can have a freudian excuse to be an ass to everyone.

Also, people blaming Vegetto here are ignoring how she had Gohan, as shown in the special where she goes from Grade 1 to Grade 4 SSJ in a few hours (Totally not favoritism or anything). Gohan was a great uncle and did a good job with Bra.
She also had Goten and Trunks, who while goofy, are grown up and good people.
She'd also have Bulma, but again, they're not allowed to interact or else Bra's personality would have been corrected earlier on in her life.

Edit: Wait! I just realized something!
Bra was born with power that drives her mad, people in the story are constantly giving her underserved praise, and fans are always trying to excuse every bad actions she does.
She's an UCHIHA! 3 Replie(s)

Zen Buu got that hourglass figure

I don't like Vegeta either. In fact I fucking hate him. Now what?
Even I can say that they're not alike, in fact Bra has even less of an excuse.
Vegeta was raised in a war-like culture by an evil emperor, had the ever-loving shit beaten out of him and lost every single time he did something stupid, made actual attempts to redeem himself, and was willing to die while thinking it would be permanent.

Bra was raised in a cushy spoiled househould by a rich mother and a father who is basically the universe's superhero, with cinnamon roll Gohan there to help her. And still she cares more about power than destroying the Earth (and killing Gohan by suffocation. She tried to kill Gohan.), or about killing Goten and a planet full of civilians, or about the Heliote's entire universe, or about the safety of the audience. And the one time she has faced consequences for it so far, the time she got beaten up by Cold, she was saved by an "off-panel" asspull, so she didn't even get to lose, and based off her attitude she clearly didn't learn anything.
Also, she's apparently scared of being killed by Vegetto, even though the Dragonballs are a thing. Y'know, the thing people are using as an excuse for Bra's actions?

I fucking hate Vegeta, but he's far more bearable as a villain than Bra is as a "hero."







She destroyed a Solar System, which from what little information we were given, could have had more than one inhabited planet.

Also, upon being told that she killed Goten and destroyed that planet, her reaction was to not care at all, instead just being proud of her own strength. That was also after she tried to kill Gohan by suffocating him, as well as the entire population of Earth, by destroying the planet.
She was also straight up willing to doom the Heliote's entire universe by making a bet with King Cold, and that was after she mocked them for having their entire universe in danger. In the novelization she also didn't care at all about the audience being held hostage.

Like Dr. Raichi said, if you want us to see her as still working for the good side then *ACTUALLY SHOW US THAT!*
Because before this chapter, the only time we saw Bra acting anything like that, was when she seemed remorseful to have killed Vegetto and Gohan in space. And that was a single occurence a very long time ago. The number of "Bra is a piece of shit" moments outweighs the number of "Bra can be a good person" moments by so much, that the good moment actually feel out of character at this point.

Another good point someone made earlier:
What broke Bra's majinization wasn't killing her loved ones, but being called weak. Being called weak is literally more mentally devastating to her than murdering her family.

This is just looking more and more like what I said earleir was correct, and Bra's writing is the issue. 1 Replie(s)

I don't remember where, but I've heard that Salagir supposedly made Bra specifically to be unlikeable.

The problem is that, to a huge number of people, it seems she doesn't come across as a "love to hate" character like Freeza, Azula, or Handsome Jack. Instead she's basically seen as Scrappy Doo, Danzo Shimura, or Mineta.

Her being on screen is (mostly) not met with "I love this bastard", but instead "Ugh. Not this again."

I still remember people whose comments I loved to read just straight up leaving forever after the Senzu Bean kerfuffle.

I don't remember if it was at the end of the last (non-special) chapter, just that it was at the end of some recent chapter, and how it seemingly got so bad in the comments that all of the mods had to suddenly start being active, including Salagir, keeping an eye on things and responding to people.

So yeah, Bra is definitely unlikeable for a lot of people, but in the completely wrong way. To most readers, she doesn't come a cross as a flawed person who they love to hate, but rather as an annoyance who they just want to leave and stop tainting the story.

And when this many readers react like that, I'm inclined to believe the problem is with Bra's writing.

Correct, Bra. You are a murderer. You were a murderer from the moment you blew up Goten and that planet just because your pride got wounded.

I do hope Bra actually get some form of consequences for once, but her handling in the story so far does make that hope very faint.



And yet the pro-Bra camp has always been the one throwing around insults and a horrible attitude over a simple disagreement about a fictional character.





HonestlY? I agree. Bra tried to blow up the Earth (which would kill Gohan via suffaction), didn't give half a shit when she murdered Goten, and slaughtered an entire solar system without giving a shit, all while her only concerns were her pride and power. She mocked the Heliotes for having their entire universe in danger, and in the novelization she didn't give a damn about the audience possibly dying in that fight. She risked the Heliote's wish for her pride by making a bet with Cold.

The only other time she showed anything like this was when she almost accidentally killed Gohan and Vegetto, but that was a single scene a long time ago. We have so many more examples of her being a horrible person that this page actually does feel out of character

Seems fine to me. The gap between Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Goku was massive.

— SSJ1 Gotenks before the Room of Spirit and Time would have been enough to defeat Fat Buu, making him comparable to SSJ3 Goku
— Goten and Trunks then trained for a while in the Room of Spirit and Time, and Gotenks gained access to SSJ 2 and 3
— The generally agreed upon boost is that SSJ2 is SSJ times two, and SSJ3 is SSJ2 times four.
— That means a hypothetical SSJ3 Gotenks before the RoSaT would be eight times as powerful as SSJ3 Goku
— Let's really give Goku an advantage here and say that SSJ3 Gotenks after the RoSaT only went up to nine times SSJ3 Goku.
— That made him roughly even with a Super Buu.
— Ultimate Gohan then proceeded to easily anihilate Super Buu without any effort. It was even easier than SSJ Goku dominating Freeza on Namek, and the canon difference in power there was 25%
— Again going with the bare minimum, let's say Ultimate Gohan was 30% stronger than Super Buu
— 9 + 30% (2.7) = 11.7
— This would mean that Ultimate Gohan was, at the bare minimum, 11.7 times as strong as SSJ3 Goku

I don't think Goku could have gotten a whole twelve times stronger between the Buu Saga and now. 1 Replie(s)

Man, how I miss Kibitoshin's design. Really wish he remained fused in Super.

Here's the original page

.

Vegeta was definitely not at 180,000 here, but that's because he just got done taking a major beating, and his power was stated to drop a noticeable amount after creating the articial moon and just before transforming.

What I'm gathering from these comments:

Voicing any form of criticism = being rude, entitled, and childish
Reacting to criticism by insulting people, being condescending, and dismissing it as whining = 300IQ maximum maturity

I can't help but wonder if all of these comments would still be here if the ones throwing that attitude around weren't the ones going against any and all criticism. 2 Replie(s)

New profile system is lookin' good!

As for the page, I really love the way Freeza's blast is colored in