DB Multiverse

@AnyEdge below
@monkeyboy

>dude, that warrior class / dragon class has never been mentioned in the series that is something that was made up.

They were mentioned by Guru lol. Warrior class Nameks can't create Dragon Balls, i.e that's why once Piccolo Jr merged together with kami he couldn't create a new set of dragon balls, and why Dende was brought into the picture as the new guardian. If the classes didn't exist all Namekians would be able to create dragon balls which they can't do if they could Dende wasn't needed since piccolo merged with Kami would be able to create his own set of dragon balls. now, this might sound tricky, but it' because of how Nameks create their offspring. The nameless Namek was a dragon class prodigy which was said by Guru in the Namek saga. After splitting himself both Kami and King Piccolo were still considered dragon Class namekian, King Piccolo was just evil and went against the naturally peaceful nature the dragon class had. When King Piccolo created Piccolo Jr before his death, he made Piccolo Jr a Warrior class namekian, that's why he was so much stronger then Demon King Piccolo. Once Piccolo Jr fused with Nail that solidified his status as a warrior class namekian. When Kami and Piccolo Jr remerged together they mixed the classes making Piccolo Jr the only hybrid of both classes. But once they merged together the old dragon balls became useless. Warrior class Namekians have a different physical build than the dragon-class Namekians. They are taller and much more muscular as well as have keen fighting senses and abilities. If the classes didn't exist, every single Namekian would have fought frizeas soldiers and eventually overwhelm them by their numbers but they didn't because the average Namekian were not fighters.

>piccolo was an average namek and he alone was strong enough to conquer the whole Earth with his most powerful warriors.
No, he wasn't lol, the son of Katas or the nameless namekian wasn't an average Namek. Grand Elder Guru even stated that the nameless namekian, when merged together, would have had a power equal to that of a SSJ. Which was proven true when Piccolo jr finally merged back with Kami and was even stronger than a SSJ. But Demon King Piccolo had a PL of over 200, the average human had a PL of 5, it wouldn't have been hard for Demon King Piccolo to conquer the entire earth at all actually.


>the namekis we see fighting Soldiers in the anime are most likely a third generations of namekias. dendei and his younger brother being the youngest of that generations. they most likely are at the same age with piccolo at the cell saga.

Piccolo jr aged rapidly due to how Demon King Piccolo wanted him to be. Nameks can control how they want their offsprings to come out and grow, this was evident with Demon King Piccolo and his demon clan offspring as well as with piccolo jr himself. So it could be possible that they where that age or even older because again Namekians can live up to 500 years so yeah that's a toss up.

@AnyEdge

>I still believe humans have a greater potential than the Saiyans.
>The fact that the humans were able to reach the levels they did--without any transformations or fusions--speaks volumes.

the strongest natural human is either Tien or Krillen. Currently, both of them can't hold a candle to cyborg 17 and 18 who are confirmed to be above SSJ level. No matter how much they train, a natural human won't be able to reach the levels the likes of 17 and 18 showed. They can become better fighters off of improving fighting technics and stratagy but raw power humans just don't have.

>2. You're right. I should have added the word "warriors" when talking about the Saiyans and Namekians power levels. However, notice that you have two classes of Namekians with different skill sets. As warriors, Namekians are incredibly durable, very strong and they have that dreaded regeneration ability. Imagine an army of Namekian warriors going up against an army of Saiyans. Equal numbers and power levels. The Namekian warriors would more than easily hold their own. In fact, I would see the Saiyans as the ones at a disadvantage. Saiyans may get stronger after recovering from near-death, but first--they have to recover. The Namekians have healers who can create Dragon Balls. That's not to mention all of the other random abilities Namekians have shown(fusion for instance).

this entire scenario is flawed lol. One Namekians are peaceful by nature even warrior class namekians, two, the warrior class namekians have always been low in numbers, in the namek saga 86% of the planet was made up by dragon class namekians while 14% were made up of warrior class. Three the scenario you presented leaves the Namekians at a disadvantage honestly lol. Equal numbers with equal power levels. so let's say 10 saiyans vs 10 namekians, the namekians would be split into a group of combatants and support, so we can say 7 warrior class combatants with 3 supportive dragon class. the Dragon class are weaker and more fragile, and all of their abilities take time to accomplish. They can't heal anyone instantly, their regeneration cuts stamina and merging are not instant either all of that would leave them open for attack making it easy to pick them off as the fight goes on. The saiyans would actually be stronger due to the Oozaru form but that takes time and would leave them open for attack, but still put them above the namekian fighters if pulled off but I doubt it.

>The Namekians natural physical abilities, combined with their wild array of skills is why I believe they have a greater potential than the Saiyans. The Saiyans are just brute force.

most of their wilder abilities aren't used for combat, so their potential combat wise is stifled plus like you said it depends on the class because both of them have different abilities. A warrior class can't heal someone, and a dragon class by nature can't fight. What use is materalizing clothes in a battle or laying and egg in the midst of a conflict?

>3. I stand by my belief that Piccolo would have been the strongest character in DBZ if he had learned the Kaio-Ken technique. There was a flaw in your argument where you said "[Piccolo's] base power will never grow unless he took the time to train on getting stronger..."

Nah, Piccolo wouldn't be the strongest cuz he would be stagnant power wise. No matter how far he could push the Kaio ken he would just be straining his body. Goku can utilize it the way he can because the strain on his body makes him stronger as he pushes his limits, Piccolo would have to first master the kaio ken then try not to kill himself while he uses it while also attempting to increas his base power by training so ghe dosen't fall behind.

>That applies to everybody! By the time they reach the Cell Saga, the Zenkai boost is practically useless. Cell was the only person who benefitted from it. Vegita sure as hell didn't after getting broken in half by Cell.

Lol, Cell was the only person to get a massive Zenkai boost during the cell saga, so no he wasn't the only person to benefit from it. A zenkai boost is a zenkai boost no matter how little the boost is. If a saiyan had a power of 5 and got a zenaki boost after almost dying and his or her power is now 6.5 or even 7 that saiyan got stronger even if it was by a little bit. If a Namekian was in the same situation with the same power level that Namekian would still have a power level of 5 and would have to train in order to increase it. Saiyans also learn either in the middle of battler or after a battle, they are very adaptive when it comes to fighting, Namekians are not unless they are prodigies like Piccolo and Nail who are not average namekians.

>Piccolo was able to keep up with SSJ levels of power(with some help from fusions--mind you). SS2--which completely dominated Perfect Cell--is a 2x boost from SSJ. SS3 is a 4x boost from SS2(8x from SSJ). Goku was able to push the Kaio-Ken to a x20 multiplier. Piccolo, at SSJ-levels of power, with a 20x boost--would completely stomp over everyone else. Remember, Piccolo trained constantly throughout DBZ.

You do realize that Piccolo would have to first train his body not to give out before he could reach kaio ken x20 right lol. Goku has been using the kaio ken since the saiyan saga and when Goku first used Kaio Ken he could only push it to up to x3 without almost destroying himself. the moment he jumped to kaio ken x4 Goku's body gave out and he could barely fight anymore if he went beyond that he would have killed himself. Piccolo would have to first master Kaio Ken, then build up to the multipliers without overdoing it like Goku did when he used Kaio Ken x10 against Hit and almost ended his fighting career completely. That's why I keep saying Piccolo would have an issue with kaio ken as it's not all that simple especially if it's in the higher multipliers like you keep suggesting.

>It wasn't until he fused with Kame that he gave up his training(I know he stopped training after Cell's defeat, but his personality up until that point, was one similar to Goku and Vegita. I believe Kame was what changed his personality as Kame never trained). If you believe Piccolo could take the KK further than anyone else--imagine how powerful he would have become!

Piccolo relaxed on his intense training because he couldn't reach perfect cells level from what I understand. I believe he stated that in the buu saga but I'd have to check again. If memory serves me right it was in the HBTC with Goten and Trunks when they became SSJ 3 as Gotenks for the first time. but Kami had nothing to do with it.

>4. From what I remember, the HTC ages everyone the same way. One day on the outside was equivalent to one Earth year on the inside. There was nothing to indicate the HTC aging different species at different rates--outside of what was already naturally established. In other words, a human spending one full day--outside time--in the HTC, will come out one year older. That's it.

You misunderstood me. Saiyans have longer life spans and age slower then humans, they stay in their prime longer which was inferred by Vegeta by the end of the buu arc because he was almost 80ish during that tournament with Uub. When Nappa arrived on earth he was 50 but looked to be 30, vegeta was in his 30's but looked to be a late teen or in his early 20's. A humans lifespan is between 80-100 aside from Roshi of course, which would make using the HBTC dangerous. Lossing a year of your life in only a few days is not very beneficial for someone who can't stay in their prime longer than 20 years. Goku and Vegeta at 80 would still look young and be in prime condition, while Krillen and Yamcha at the same age would be older and not in very good condition to keep up with extremely high levels of combat.

>About the stress of the HTC...IIRC, it had a gravity ten times that of Earth. To put it in perspective...Yamcha was able to survive 350x Earth's gravity--without any previous prep AND without dying! Vegita had to build his way up to 350G. Goku had to build his way up to 100G. Yamcha...one-shoted 350G. No broken bones or ruptured organs. Just saying.

Yamcha was in 300x earths gravity, not 350 lol and he almost died when he did that. The gravity isn't the only issue, There is no night or day in the Room, but the surroundings remain a constant bright iridescent white that alone can cause someone to go crazy. you can lose your sense of night and day and your body will be thrown out of whack unless you mentally are prepared for something like that. The temperature also changes drastically from extreme heat to extream cold randomly and the air pressure is a quarter of the earths and changes the deeper you go into the chamber. If you are not prepared both physically and mentally for the HBTC you will go crazy or get stuck inside and eventually die there. again Yamcha almost died when he did that lol ill link you the video. But both Goku and Vegeta got accustomed to 10x earths gravity first, then built their way up, Yamcha jumped the gun and almost killed himself by skipping steps. You can equate what Goku and Vegeta did with the gravity room to strength endurance training that you can do in the gym. If you can personally curl let's say 65 lbs dumbells, if you want to increase your strength endurance you start to crul lower weights first not your max. so start out with let's say 10 lbs and curl them 30x's for each arm until finally, you notice that your endurance level has increased to where your arm isn't tired after curling the 10lbs 30xs, what you would do next is increase the weight and repeat the process. So 15 lbs 30x's up until you reach a point where your muscles aren't tired anymore when you do your reps. What Yamcha did is equivalent to deciding to say I'm going to instead start with 65 lbs and curl that 30x's when in reality you can only curl that maybe 5xs before giving out or hurting yourself. There is a level of progression that needs to be done to get the best results. so your example with yamcha was a really bad choice lol.

here is the Youtube link to the video of Yamcha almost killing himself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQQc-TcQSCo

>My whole point about humans was their apparent lack of drive.

Because it's not their nature to fight constantly. In DB humans don't go looking for conflicts constantly like saiyans do.

>They could be so much stronger. In fact, outside of the Namekians, humans had the best techniques. No one in Frieza's army had even heard of the concept of detecting power levels without a scouter! Saiyans are purely physical strength--nothing more.
>Namekians have durability, regeneration, and a wealth of abilities.
>Humans may not be the physically strongest, but have creativity and skill.

Goku learned and perfected the techniques that they made lol. Vegeta even picked up these techniques and knew how and when to utilize them without even having to train to figure them out. He learned how to detect Ki and mask his ki by simply seeing someone else do it lol. saiyans, for the most part, are purely physical strength, but they are also tactical fighters as shown by both Goku and Vegeta. your speculation on Saiyans is kinda faulty cuz we don't know what techniques they could have developed if they were not killed off. Nappa destroyed an entire city with two fingers and opened an abyss with one lol, Vegeta made a saibaman and Cui exploid without shooting ki at them so saiyans have developed some really strong techniques. Saiyans naturally can utilize Ki easier than humans and are better skilled at using ki then humans are, they already have a level of ki control from a young age that humans have to train to achieve, they are physically stronger and more adept to combat without training and have combative instincts that both warrior class namekians and humans don't have.

>The "drive" is something the fighters themselves should have had--considering all of the times the Earth was in danger.

Saiyans have a drive to get stronger no matter what is going on, humans in DB had a drive to get stronger when the earth was in danger, but when it was safe they relaxed cuz they had no need to get stronger cuz there was no threat. Saiyans have the higher potential because all the things they could do naturally the human race has to train for, and the namekians would have to ignore their nature or be corrupted to change. Not to mention the transformations that the saiyans have as they increase their power.

@Nick Name aggy
I get your points, but there are a few things I disagree on:

1. I still believe humans have a greater potential than the Saiyans. You're right about the Saiyans being a warrior race. They spend their entire lives in combat...presumably starting from childhood. The humans--including Master Roshi et al.--are trained fighters who spent their lives training in seclusion and fighting in tournaments for sport. When it came to their survival, the humans clearly showed their ability to surpass all known human "limitations"--time and again. The fact that the humans were able to reach the levels they did--without any transformations or fusions--speaks volumes. As a side note: I always got the impression the humans were the youngest of the species portrayed in DBZ. I could be wrong, but that's how it always felt to me.

2. You're right. I should have added the word "warriors" when talking about the Saiyans and Namekians power levels. However, notice that you have two classes of Namekians with different skill sets. As warriors, Namekians are incredibly durable, very strong and they have that dreaded regeneration ability. Imagine an army of Namekian warriors going up against an army of Saiyans. Equal numbers and power levels. The Namekian warriors would more than easily hold their own. In fact, I would see the Saiyans as the ones at a disadvantage. Saiyans may get stronger after recovering from near-death, but first--they have to recover. The Namekians have healers who can create Dragon Balls. That's not to mention all of the other random abilities Namekians have shown(fusion for instance).

The Namekians natural physical abilities, combined with their wild array of skills is why I believe they have a greater potential than the Saiyans. The Saiyans are just brute force.

3. I stand by my belief that Piccolo would have been the strongest character in DBZ if he had learned the Kaio-Ken technique. There was a flaw in your argument where you said "[Piccolo's] base power will never grow unless he took the time to train on getting stronger...". That applies to everybody! By the time they reach the Cell Saga, the Zenkai boost is practically useless. Cell was the only person who benefitted from it. Vegita sure as hell didn't after getting broken in half by Cell.

Piccolo was able to keep up with SSJ levels of power(with some help from fusions--mind you). SS2--which completely dominated Perfect Cell--is a 2x boost from SSJ. SS3 is a 4x boost from SS2(8x from SSJ). Goku was able to push the Kaio-Ken to a x20 multiplier. Piccolo, at SSJ-levels of power, with a 20x boost--would completely stomp over everyone else. Remember, Piccolo trained constantly throughout DBZ. It wasn't until he fused with Kame that he gave up his training(I know he stopped training after Cell's defeat, but his personality up until that point, was one similar to Goku and Vegita. I believe Kame was what changed his personality as Kame never trained). If you believe Piccolo could take the KK further than anyone else--imagine how powerful he would have become!

4. From what I remember, the HTC ages everyone the same way. One day on the outside was equivalent to one Earth year on the inside. There was nothing to indicate the HTC aging different species at different rates--outside of what was already naturally established. In other words, a human spending one full day--outside time--in the HTC, will come out one year older. That's it. About the stress of the HTC...IIRC, it had a gravity ten times that of Earth. To put it in perspective...Yamcha was able to survive 350x Earth's gravity--without any previous prep AND without dying! Vegita had to build his way up to 350G. Goku had to build his way up to 100G. *Yamcha*...one-shoted 350G. No broken bones or ruptured organs. Just saying.

5. My whole point about humans was their apparent lack of drive. They could be so much stronger. In fact, outside of the Namekians, humans had the best techniques. No one in Frieza's army had even heard of the concept of detecting power levels without a scouter! Saiyans are purely physical strength--nothing more. Namekians have durability, regeneration, and a wealth of abilities. I believe Guru even mentioned that most of their techniques and fighting arts had been lost after the cataclysm. Humans may not be the physically strongest, but have creativity and skill.

The only "limitations" humans have are: 1)no Zenkai boost, 2)no rapid regeneration abilities and 3)no natural transformations or fusions. The "drive" is something the fighters themselves should have had--considering all of the times the Earth was in danger.

@Piccolo113 | I'm not sure who you're talking to, but there's no reason to be an asshole. Just sayin' |

I'm not an Asshole. You're the Asshole. ;-) Kidding ... ...



I was simply answering on one of those People who ((and this is annoying)) STUBBORNLY refuse to either believe -> that Majin-Freezer can unlock his fifth Form,

or were STUBBORNLY -> refusing to accept, that Freezer was indeed transforming into that Form, when One could STILL SEE THE WOUNDS from where Piccolo shot him into the Chest!




Seriously, Folks! HOW HARD could it possibly be, to spot that this Frostdemon was freezer?
I get it, it get it -> he could be easily be confused with his Father, but the Chest Wounds were RIGHT THERE !! Like IN YOUR FACE!
and all the People ... ...


" This isn't Freezer ... "

" This is Cold in MID-transformation between fourth and fifth Form ... ... "

" This can not be Freezer. Freezer can not transform into the fifth Form ... ... "




While the Chest Wounds were actually there - and PROVING THEM RIGHT WRONG - while they ACTUALLY went on with spouting this Crap!

Jeez'l~ouiese, Folks! HOW HARD is it NOT to be a stubborn, recalcitrant Child? Just accept that THIS FREEZER here can actually transform into the fifth Form!! The Majin-State enhances his Energy. It makes his Cells more resilient! Freezer has more Potential to dive deep into what his Species can do AND HAS the needed Majin-Durability to endure this Transformation!!



You know?
In the Ginyu Special? When Ginyu murdered Cold - and felt like he was about to probably explode any Moment ?? Frost Demons need to train their Bodies to unlock their full physical Potential. Oh my! What a Surprise ... ...

Freezer never trained, right? I could imagine Cooler trained a bit, in his Life. After all,
Cooler once stated that his Father "also" discovered the Augmentation-Forms, right?


That implies that " Cooler " had ALSO first to discover that he could transform into the fifth Form. Means -> he HADN'T had it from the Beginning!



The Majin-Boost unlocks for Freezer the fifth Form he was always to lazy to unlock himself. He even wondered that he "could" actually do that, when he saw the Ghostversion of him fighting for Raichi.


No Shit, People! Freezer CAN actually transform into the fifth Form.

Only because he never did before in this Tournament ((his living Self, not the Ghost one)) doesn't mean he isn't able to.
And this annoyed me the last Pages. People were like stubborn Antifa Members - hellbend in denying Freezer the Possibility of being able to.



Last fxxxing Time! You have two Eyes in your Heads when You are a undamaged Person. USE THEM!!! The Chest Wounds were right there!